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Old 07-16-2011, 01:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: Georgia
personal protection

I have decided to purchase a hand gun for home protection. Recently there has been an increase in crime in my area. I own several hunting rifles and a bow for hunting but I don't own a hand gun. Im not real up to date and knowledgeable about hand guns. Mu question is what kind and type to purchase. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Hey ralphie, there is a thread about buying your first handgun that is a good start. I've read through them and it's got a lot of good info. I'd check out those threads and ask a more specialized question afterwards (like I'm looking at going cc more than having a larger pistol, 9mm vs 45, crap like that).

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...n-threads.html is collection of all the first time handgun threads.

Hope it helps.
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I was going to post like what Lord Eden did, but I figured given how dead TFP, and especially TFP weaponry gets, I was going to let it slide.

What I think would be great for a newbie?

M&P9FS (M&P 9mm, Full Size, Safety). Buy some hollowpoints for personal protection. It should set you on a good course.

---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------

And just to piss Plan9 off.

I think The XD is great, too. (Joke).
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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What is an xd? ?
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tomorrow i'm taking me fishing, hang a sign on the door of my life,
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Quote:
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Don't go to work for anybody who cares about anything other than your work performance. Such prejudiced idiots will never profit you.
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Old 07-17-2011, 01:32 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphie250 View Post
What is an xd? ?
You can check out the product lineup here: Springfield Armory One of many models of handguns that people either love or hate.

The best advice I can give you is to go somewhere that allows you to rent firearms, spend some money shooting a variety of different guns in different calibers, and choose what you like the best. There are a LOT of different opinions out there, for every firearm you can imagine. These opinions range from "this is the biggest piece of shit in the world, and anyone who owns one is of questionable mental capacity and a fanboy" to "This gun eats mediocrity and pisses excellence. Anyone who says otherwise is obviously retarded, or eats babies." Somewhere in the middle lies a happy medium. If you read reviews and consistently find a happy medium, chances are it will probably be decent. If you find something you really like, research the piss out of it, mostly to see if there are any inherent issues related to quality control i.e. common problems, parts breakage, and most importantly (to me at least...) how much is it going to cost to fix/maintain and are the parts to do so available or not.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Next question. When I decide on what I want where is the best place to purchase one? Should I go to a gun shop, a place like dicks or academy or to a pawn shop?

Next question do I have to have a permit to own a gun or just to carry one?
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tomorrow i'm taking me fishing, hang a sign on the door of my life,
tell the world i've gone missing and i wont be back for a while.

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Don't go to work for anybody who cares about anything other than your work performance. Such prejudiced idiots will never profit you.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 07-18-2011, 11:32 AM   #8 (permalink)
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IIRC Georgia has more relaxed gun laws. You'd have to ask your local gun shop or research Handgunlaw.us

Most states permit pistol purchases with a couple day waiting period.

However, to carry a gun, most states will require a concealed carry permit (usually some form of training, fingerprinting, and filing an application).

Go to a reputable gun shop, preferably with guns to rent. Rent a couple. See which one you like the most. I tend to avoid pawn shops.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:25 PM   #9 (permalink)
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If you are talking about home protection, not carrying it on your person, I think you'll find most knowledgable people would tell you to get a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 instead of a handgun.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I tend to avoid recommending a shotgun unless that person is well versed in using the shotgun and very comfortable with it.

I know Ralphie has a small child. Should he need it for home defense, he'll likely need one hand to shepard his wife/children and call the cops.

A 26" shotgun will be harder to maneuver around. However, it is easier to shoot a long arm with greater lethality and greater accuracy.

Also Bonus: With a 9mm Glock, you can carry it on your person with a 15 rd mag, then stick in a 33rd mag before you go to bed at night as your home defense pistol...kind of out there, but not a bad idea.
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Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I've always felt pretty safe when carrying one of these:

I'll let you go on with your serious discussion now.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinegirly View Post
I've always felt pretty safe when carrying one of these:

I'll let you go on with your serious discussion now.
I think that'd only work against Wicked Witches who reside in California or Oregon.
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Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
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Old 07-20-2011, 07:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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i have plenty of shotguns and rifles. like kirstang said. its much easier to pick up a hand gun than to weld a shotgun around.

im liking 9 mm's. suggestions??
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tomorrow i'm taking me fishing, hang a sign on the door of my life,
tell the world i've gone missing and i wont be back for a while.

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Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern? View Post
Don't go to work for anybody who cares about anything other than your work performance. Such prejudiced idiots will never profit you.
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:38 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Ralphie,

Answer a few questions for us:

1.) What's your stated use for the pistol? Do you ever plan on carrying this pistol? If so, are you of large build? Do you tend to wear loose fitting clothing?

2.) Do you like manual safeties? If so, are you sure you will be properly trained to disengage the safety under stress?

3.) What's your budget? How important are ergonomics to you? Capacity?
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Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
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For the price, Glocks and Springfield XDs are very reliable. Get night sights installed.

9mm is fine if you like it. I prefer .40 and larger.

Buy it from a gun store new. Look online for reviews of the stores. Fire at least 100 rounds through it to be sure it's functioning. Fire a few hundred more for practice.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:22 AM   #16 (permalink)
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And buy a quality flashlight. A small one that's maneuverable.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:24 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Location: Georgia
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirStang View Post
Ralphie,

Answer a few questions for us:

1.) What's your stated use for the pistol? Do you ever plan on carrying this pistol? If so, are you of large build? Do you tend to wear loose fitting clothing?

2.) Do you like manual safeties? If so, are you sure you will be properly trained to disengage the safety under stress?

3.) What's your budget? How important are ergonomics to you? Capacity?



1.) for mostly at home. i may decide at a later date to carry it. but i dont plan on it as of now. yes i a of large build (fat and happy). yes typically they are loose fitting

2.) i like manual safeties. for many reasons. im sure i will ba able to cope with it under pressure.

3.) less that $800.00. i dont know what eroonomics are. 8-16
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tomorrow i'm taking me fishing, hang a sign on the door of my life,
tell the world i've gone missing and i wont be back for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern? View Post
Don't go to work for anybody who cares about anything other than your work performance. Such prejudiced idiots will never profit you.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:52 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I stand by my earlier recommendation of the S&W M&P9mm Full Size and safety:

Smith & Wesson 17 + 1 9MM/Ambidextrous Manual Safety/4.25" B $508.00 SHIPS FREE



Ergonomics (how the gun feels in your hand) is very good. The frame mounted safety is a plus, and is ambidextrous. It isn't too expensive ($508 plus shipping and transfer fees...or find one locally). 17rd capacity.

Trigger on the gun is a little weak--but probably not a big concern for a novice shooter. I have seen big boys conceal full size weapons without me noticing until they told me, so that's also another benefit. The trigger is swappable for a nicer, aftermarket unit, if you ever decide to do that in the future.

I'd strongly recommend night sights if you can swing it. I like them, some people find that unnecessary, but I usually spring for night sights.

S&W Customer service is superb.

A good handheld flashlight is always good for home defense too (allows you to illuminate something without pointing a gun at it.)

I personally went with a HKP30S in 9mm, but that's another $300 ($825) and doesn't offer any marked benefits. It was just personal preference. HK usually costs more, including magazines and parts, like the famed $50 firing pin. Customer service is reputed to have gotten better over the years, but I've never used them.



You may also consider the Glock 17/19/34. They're the famed ultra reliable glocks...

However I didn't want to recommend that for 2 reasons:

1.) No external safety.

2.) Current batch on the market has had reliability issues with their extractors and newfangled recoil spring. They aren't as reliable as the Glocks of yore.

Cool thing though, is you can stick a 33rd mag in it...(Yes. I have read criminal cases where the homeowner ran out of ammo, so it does happen, however rare).

=================================

Last thing, if you go with 9mm, it is a good choice because target/practice ammo is inexpensive. HOWEVER, I strongly recommend buying defense 9mm ammunition for your home defense/carry gun. I have seen X-rays of perps shot with 10rds of 9mm and survived to kill the homeowner. There have been a couple of famous stories of 9mm failing to stop the threat, so buy good 9mm defensive ammo like Federal HST 9mm in either 124 or 147gr, or Corbon DPX or Winchester Ranger Talons.

Hope this helps.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
"Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not cease on this account to be moral beings, responsible to one another and to God."

Last edited by KirStang; 07-20-2011 at 10:57 AM..
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:58 PM   #19 (permalink)
I'm calmer than you are, dude
 
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I'm a something of a Glock guy but the M&P is *hands down* the most comfortable pistol that I've ever held. And they're every bit as reliable as Glock.

---

The HK USP has the dumbest mag release in the world. It's about as practical as the Ruger Mk II.

---

Don't you dare start up the 9 vs. 40 vs. 45 debate.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post

Don't you dare start up the 9 vs. 40 vs. 45 debate.
Depends on how big the bears get in his area. Grizzlies definitely require 40 cal.
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:00 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ChrisJericho View Post
Depends on how big the bears get in his area. Grizzlies definitely require 40 cal.
9mm is more than good enough for daily carry and house work. Staring down a charging 900 lbs grizzly is IMI TAR-21 work.
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:48 PM   #22 (permalink)
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LMAO. I love this forum.
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Revelant to threadjack:

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Old 07-22-2011, 04:39 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KirStang View Post
I tend to avoid recommending a shotgun unless that person is well versed in using the shotgun and very comfortable with it.
It sounds to me by his posts that he's already experienced with shotguns, and is not yet comfortable with hand guns. With any firearm you plan to use in a rushed, adrenaline filled situation, being familiar with it is probably the single most important aspect to consider for success.


All it takes is a quick google search of gun forums to see that the overwhelming opinion of serious gun owners is that a shotgun is far superior for the scenario he is talking about, and there are tons of options with less than 26" barrels.

Obviously it's his personal preference, and if he just wants to get a handgun for the sake of getting one but wants to use this as an added reason, that's fine.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:02 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Borla,

I used to think the 12g pump was the be-all-end-all of home defense. Hell, I own several “combat shotguns” from many of the major brands, including the Remington 870, the Mossberg 590, a Winchester 1300 clone, etc. Turns out I ended up sticking my foot in my mouth in front of people that actually know what they're doing because they shoot people for a living. After asking me where I got all my first hand knowledge (The Internets!), they explained the whole home defense weapon debacle.

Turns out a "quick Google search" of the Internet reveals that the "overwhelming opinion of serious gun owners" is based on bullshit... urban legends and the death ray mythology of the 12g pump shotgun. Simply put: these know-it-all, heard-it-from-muh-cuzzin motherfuckers have never shot any of these weapons inside a building (let alone their own house in the dark) and definitely haven't considered the weapon handling (movement with the gun such as pieing a room, opening doors) and manipulation (working the gun such as loading, fixing malfunctions) factors involved.

To avoid the overpenetration “...but I’m going to kill my neighbors!” issue, let’s start with the premise that ALL of the following rounds (shotgun, pistol, carbine) are capable of the FBI stopping power standard of 12” ballistic gelatin penetration. Now, you’re not going to find a round will reliably stop a bad guy that won’t penetrate, let’s say, four interior walls (8 sheets of drywall). The reason why this preface is important is because it is something many people don't understand. The simple fact is that ANY good home defense weapon can shoot through enough walls to be dangerous to friendlies.

12g Slide Shotgun:

* longer, heavier (harder to maneuver, hold single-handed)
* low capacity, awkward manual reload
* harsh recoil, slower follow-up shots
* easy to jam by short stroking under stress
* lacks precision accuracy for one-in-a-million shots

9mm / .40 / .45 Pistol:

* shortest and lightest option (easiest to maneuver, can be kept close)
* 7-33 round mag, easy instant reload
* quick follow-up shots
* semi-auto, simply pull the trigger
* precision accuracy for one-in-a-million shots
* not as steady as a long gun for follow-up shots

5.56mm / .223 Carbine:

* shorter, lighter than shotgun (easier to maneuver, hold single-handed)
* 20-30 round mag, easy instant reload
* minimal recoil, fast follow-up shots
* semi-auto, simply pull the trigger
* precision accuracy for one-in-a-million shots
* loud and may have a severe muzzle flash

...

Google "Box of Truth" and hit up M4Carbine.net for more evidence as related to the shotgun vs. pistol vs. carbine debate. The old 12 gauge pump gun may be the pop culture answer to home defense, but it's hardly the best choice. If you've never run a shoot house with a pump shotgun, you're not allowed to use urban legends and action movies as your reasoning. Shotguns are perfectly fine for home defense but if you can save for one, a service-caliber pistol or 5.56mm carbine may serve you that much better. A handgun is better than a shotgun for many of the reasons listed above.

IMO, nobody is so broke that they can't save for a used pistol or AR. They sure can make a lot of bullshit excuses, though. "Hey, not all of us have a thousand dollars to spend, smart guy!" Absolutely correct. I'm not attempting to suggest that everybody needs an AR at home to defend themselves properly. The 12g pump shotgun is great tool, especially if you're really familiar with it (and have had professional stress-monkey training). A SxS cowboy shotgun will work. A used police turn-in Glock 22 .40 is great. A S&W 10 .38 Spec will do fine if that's all you have. Claw hammer. Bear spear. Whatever works. The idea is that you want something with the least amount of limitations (see above comparison). You use what you've got, though.

One of the big things that really gets me, and I'm not referring to anyone in particular with this, is how people talk about their blue collar woes with their limited budget and yet have the newest gaming PC / console system, some ridiculous sportscar / sportbike, etc. They've made toys the priority in their life and then act totally shocked when someone tells them that they can't get a respectable self defense firearm for $150. I don't see a firearm as just a hobby, I see as just as vital as a first aid kit and flashlight (other things Civvie Joe Rambo forgets). What are your priorities? Budget accordingly.

In the end, the handgun is the most popular option because it works inside and outside the home. You can't open carry a shotgun or AR.

/rant from a guy that doesn't know jack shit
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Last edited by Plan9; 07-22-2011 at 09:50 AM..
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:14 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borla View Post
It sounds to me by his posts that he's already experienced with shotguns, and is not yet comfortable with hand guns. With any firearm you plan to use in a rushed, adrenaline filled situation, being familiar with it is probably the single most important aspect to consider for success.


All it takes is a quick google search of gun forums to see that the overwhelming opinion of serious gun owners is that a shotgun is far superior for the scenario he is talking about, and there are tons of options with less than 26" barrels.

Obviously it's his personal preference, and if he just wants to get a handgun for the sake of getting one but wants to use this as an added reason, that's fine.
Fair enough.

The 26" is the minimum legal length of the overall shoulder-stocked shotgun as required by the ATF. Any shorter and you would need paperwork and a couple months' wait. Unless you forewent the stock. Which is strongly NOT recommended.

FWIW.

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 PM ----------

And Plan9 made some very salient points on the advantages/disadvantages of each platform.

I personally have not felt comfortable maneuvering my 18.5" barrel collapsible stock mossberg around my home, despite shooting steel matches and practicing emergency/speed reloads on them. 18.5" is the minimum legal non NFA shotgun barrel length.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
"Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not cease on this account to be moral beings, responsible to one another and to God."

Last edited by KirStang; 07-22-2011 at 09:26 AM..
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:33 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post
Borla,

I used to think the 12g pump was the be-all-end-all of home defense. Hell, I own several “combat shotguns” from many of the major brands, including the Remington 870, the Mossberg 590, a Winchester 1300 clone, etc. Turns out I ended up sticking my foot in my mouth in front of people that actually know what they're doing because they shoot people for a living. After asking me where I got all my first hand knowledge (The Internets!), they explained the whole home defense weapon debacle.

Turns out a "quick Google search" of the Internet reveals that the "overwhelming opinion of serious gun owners" is based on bullshit... urban legends and the death ray mythology of the 12g pump shotgun. Simply put: these know-it-all, heard-it-from-muh-cuzzin motherfuckers have never shot any of these weapons inside a building (let alone their own house in the dark) and definitely haven't considered the weapon handling (movement with the gun such as pieing a room, opening doors) and manipulation (working the gun such as loading, fixing malfunctions) factors involved.

To avoid the overpenetration “...but I’m going to kill my neighbors!” issue, let’s start with the premise that ALL of the following rounds (shotgun, pistol, carbine) are capable of the FBI stopping power standard of 12” ballistic gelatin penetration. Now, you’re not going to find a round will reliably stop a bad guy that won’t penetrate, let’s say, four interior walls (8 sheets of drywall). The reason why this preface is important is because it is something many people don't understand. The simple fact is that ANY good home defense weapon can shoot through enough walls to be dangerous to friendlies.

12g Slide Shotgun:

* longer, heavier (harder to maneuver, hold single-handed)
* low capacity, awkward manual reload
* harsh recoil, slower follow-up shots
* easy to jam by short stroking under stress
* lacks precision accuracy for one-in-a-million shots

9mm / .40 / .45 Pistol:

* shortest and lightest option (easiest to maneuver, can be kept close)
* 7-33 round mag, easy instant reload
* quick follow-up shots
* semi-auto, simply pull the trigger
* precision accuracy for one-in-a-million shots
* not as steady as a long gun for follow-up shots

5.56mm / .223 Carbine:

* shorter, lighter than shotgun (easier to maneuver, hold single-handed)
* 20-30 round mag, easy instant reload
* minimal recoil, fast follow-up shots
* semi-auto, simply pull the trigger
* precision accuracy for one-in-a-million shots
* loud and may have a severe muzzle flash

...

Google "Box of Truth" and hit up M4Carbine.net for more evidence as related to the shotgun vs. pistol vs. carbine debate. The old 12 gauge pump gun may be the pop culture answer to home defense, but it's hardly the best choice. If you've never run a shoot house with a pump shotgun, you're not allowed to use urban legends and action movies as your reasoning. Shotguns are perfectly fine for home defense but if you can save for one, a service-caliber pistol or 5.56mm carbine may serve you that much better. A handgun is better than a shotgun for many of the reasons listed above.

IMO, nobody is so broke that they can't save for a used pistol or AR. They sure can make a lot of bullshit excuses, though. "Hey, not all of us have a thousand dollars to spend, smart guy!" Absolutely correct. I'm not attempting to suggest that everybody needs an AR at home to defend themselves properly. The 12g pump shotgun is great tool, especially if you're really familiar with it (and have had professional stress-monkey training). A SxS cowboy shotgun will work. A used police turn-in Glock 22 .40 is great. A S&W 10 .38 Spec will do fine if that's all you have. Claw hammer. Bear spear. Whatever works. The idea is that you want something with the least amount of limitations (see above comparison). You use what you've got, though.

One of the big things that really gets me, and I'm not referring to anyone in particular with this, is how people talk about their blue collar woes with their limited budget and yet have the newest gaming PC / console system, some ridiculous sportscar / sportbike, etc. They've made toys the priority in their life and then act totally shocked when someone tells them that they can't get a respectable self defense firearm for $150. I don't see a firearm as just a hobby, I see as just as vital as a first aid kit and flashlight (other things Civvie Joe Rambo forgets). What are your priorities? Budget accordingly.

In the end, the handgun is the most popular option because it works inside and outside the home. You can't open carry a shotgun or AR.

/rant from a guy that doesn't know jack shit
I always like when people argue over the internet, and one of their defenses is "you can't believe what you read on the internet".


In reality, few home invasion responses require things that are covered in your main points. Having 20 rounds is great. Having a gun that is accurate enough for a one in a million shot is great. But the reality is that whatever you are most comfortable with, can be accessible, and is reliable enough to go boom when you pull the trigger the first time or two is the best thing for you. Most random burglars cut and run at the sight or sound of a gun. They are there for a few bucks, some drug money, or easy profit, they aren't there to get their head blown off.

By a huge ratio, most folks (especially those not living in bad areas) will never have their homes broken into when they are there. By an even huger ratio, most invaders won't stick around to be in a fire fight. If you want to war game your house and be tacticool, fine, but the chances are massively in the favor of that just being grown up make believe and/or a hobby to have fun with.
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:38 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borla View Post
I always like when people argue over the internet, and one of their defenses is "you can't believe what you read on the internet".
That might apply to other threads. This isn't an argument; it is a presentation of a fact-based comparison of weapon platforms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borla
In reality, few home invasion responses require things that are covered in your main points. Having 20 rounds is great. Having a gun that is accurate enough for a one in a million shot is great. But the reality is that whatever you are most comfortable with, can be accessible, and is reliable enough to go boom when you pull the trigger the first time or two is the best thing for you. Most random burglars cut and run at the sight or sound of a gun. They are there for a few bucks, some drug money, or easy profit, they aren't there to get their head blown off.
Again, what are you basing this off of? Your experience as a criminal psychic? My position is to prepare for the most realistic worst case scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borla
By a huge ratio, most folks (especially those not living in bad areas) will never have their homes broken into when they are there. By an even huger ratio, most invaders won't stick around to be in a fire fight. If you want to war game your house and be tacticool, fine, but the chances are massively in the favor of that just being grown up make believe and/or a hobby to have fun with.
Aaah, I get your logic now... I'm sure there is no need for a fire extinguisher or first aid kit in your house, either. I wanna live in your world.

/got trolled
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:53 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borla View Post
I always like when people argue over the internet, and one of their defenses is "you can't believe what you read on the internet".


In reality, few home invasion responses require things that are covered in your main points. Having 20 rounds is great. Having a gun that is accurate enough for a one in a million shot is great. But the reality is that whatever you are most comfortable with, can be accessible, and is reliable enough to go boom when you pull the trigger the first time or two is the best thing for you. Most random burglars cut and run at the sight or sound of a gun. They are there for a few bucks, some drug money, or easy profit, they aren't there to get their head blown off.

By a huge ratio, most folks (especially those not living in bad areas) will never have their homes broken into when they are there. By an even huger ratio, most invaders won't stick around to be in a fire fight. If you want to war game your house and be tacticool, fine, but the chances are massively in the favor of that just being grown up make believe and/or a hobby to have fun with.
In my extremely limited amount of shotgun experience (ie trap and skeet shooting for one day with a relative) I realized just how much of a pain in the ass doing anything with the shotgun is.

The rate of fire is very slow (we are talking about pumps). Often times bad guys attack in teams. I want to be able to shoot multiple targets as quickly as possible and the cycling of the pump in general slows down how much you can shoot in a small amount of time. The skeet shooting really exemplified this. Shooting at two moving targets is hard enough, but then you throw in the additional task of pumping while keeping your sights on then next target and the complexity becomes much greater.

Additionally there's also the possibility of short stroking the pump. I did this a couple times throughout the day after fatigue was setting in. If the short stroking occurred in broad daylight under ideal circumstances, there's also the real possibility it could happen at 2am when someone breaks in and I'm groggy and in my hello kitty pajamas. Granted, I would be hopped up on adrenaline, but the short stroking could still be an issue.

Then of course there's the issue of reloading. The pump I used that day was the remington 870 and it was a pain in the ass getting passed the little trap door at the bottom and then of course you have to push the shell forward. Essentially the in the same amount of time it takes to load one round into the shotgun you could have loaded one entire magazine into a semi-auto handgun or rifle and gotten 15-30 more rounds instead of 1.

I was really close to getting a Mossberg 590A1 as my primary home defense system, let's face it: shotguns look cool and they make big holes. And I agree with you in that most burglars start running after the first shot is fired, but for me these were serious shortcomings of the shotgun system.
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:00 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borla View Post

By a huge ratio, most folks (especially those not living in bad areas) will never have their homes broken into when they are there. By an even huger ratio, most invaders won't stick around to be in a fire fight. If you want to war game your house and be tacticool, fine, but the chances are massively in the favor of that just being grown up make believe and/or a hobby to have fun with.
3 in 100 houses burn down. Chances are massively in the favor that my house will not burn down. Fire insurance? I have that. Fire extinguishers? I have three.

Any long firearm limits you. Unless you're really good at holding and shooting a shotgun one-handed, you lose your defensive firing ability every time you open a door, flip a light switch, or use your phone to make an emergency call. Long firearms are much easier to have taken away in close quarters. If the criminal gets close enough to you to grab you, your chances of using a long firearm on said criminal go down pretty far, with the exception of checking him/her like a hockey player. Long firearms make it very difficult to utilize a flashlight, which is essential in making sure you aren't about to unload double ought buck into a family member. Can you get a flashlight on the shotgun? Sure. Now wherever you're looking with the light you're also aiming a loaded firearm. And now anyone hiding nearby knows exactly where your weapon is and isn't pointed.

A shotgun may be the best tool if your plan is to sit in the bedroom and point it at the door until authorities arrive. If I have to move through my house (gathering loved ones, primarily) I want the firearm with the most mobility, the easiest to shift aim, and the freedom to use my other hand to use a flashlight or dial 911. It's not tacticool, it's common sense.

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Old 07-22-2011, 04:22 PM   #31 (permalink)
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So basically a pistol with a light on your picatinny rail or a shotgun with a great front kick for those pesky doors!
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Old 07-23-2011, 07:12 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Doing my best to stay out of this thread, but I would like to point out that the arguments against long guns seem to hing on the fact that they require at least 30 minutes of familiarization and a little bit of practice to attain proficiency. For what it's worth, virtually everyone that makes a living of shooting indoors uses a rifle or shotgun, with a handgun as a secondary. They don't seem to have problems opening doors or using weapons lights (3 second rule).

A shotgun with a light is a simple yet absolutely devastating defensive weapon within the confines of a house. Those that can't be bothered to learn day-one, basic skills like moving around a bit and how to top off a shotgun on the fly really have no business owning something that requires more training and fine motor skills (like a pistol).
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:40 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
Doing my best to stay out of this thread, but I would like to point out that the arguments against long guns seem to hing on the fact that they require at least 30 minutes of familiarization and a little bit of practice to attain proficiency. For what it's worth, virtually everyone that makes a living of shooting indoors uses a rifle or shotgun, with a handgun as a secondary. They don't seem to have problems opening doors or using weapons lights (3 second rule).

A shotgun with a light is a simple yet absolutely devastating defensive weapon within the confines of a house. Those that can't be bothered to learn day-one, basic skills like moving around a bit and how to top off a shotgun on the fly really have no business owning something that requires more training and fine motor skills (like a pistol).
Walt, I consider you a subject matter expert, so maybe I'll be forced to eat my words.

However, I think the standard professional who uses a long arm indoors probably works with a team, and his (or her) priorities are different than those of a homeowner.

In addition, if you point a gun (attached to your weaponlight) at any individual, you've just potentially opened yourself up to assault-with-a-deadly-weapon liability. Circumstances may vary.

Similarly, I've had to deal with trespassers on my property at 1am. I was able to conceal the pistol on my person, then confront the trespasser. If I only had a long arm available, I would have again, opened myself up to potential criminal liability if I decided to arm myself. (Before anyone says 'castle doctrine' I'm gonna reply with 'CURTILAGE').

There's no denying that a long arm is more effective, more accurate, and just a generally better fighting tool. However, for a civilian interested in 'personal protection,' I think a pistol would do just fine.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:21 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I appreciate the kind words but I am far from an expert. A team most definitely has a different dynamic than a single person but the actions taken remain the same at the most basic levels. You still gotta shoot and move.

The fear of opening myself up to getting charged with "assault with a deadly weapon" will never, ever trump "knowing exactly who I am pointing a gun at and whether or not they pose an immediate threat". I have never been a fan of a handheld light when a weapons-mounted light is an option. Changing mags, clearing a jam, picking my nose just becomes a chore when I've got a Surefire in one hand (and am not wearing kit to tuck it in to) and a gun in the other .

As for for the trespassers bit, I would have played it the same way you did...but 1) you obviously are willing to put in the time to be proficient with a weapon that requires it. 2) You needed to be able to conceal the pistol because you went outside. You could have just as easily have stayed inside and called the cops as there was no direct threat to your life.

A pistol makes sense for someone like you, but you're a minority. A pistol requires a bit more of the shooter. Obviously you're willing to put in the range time to be able to put multiple rounds on target quickly. I'm guess that you also prepare for the unexpected like malfunctions, reloading with retention, drawing from concealment, etc when you're at the range or even when you're bored and watching TV. How many gun owners do you think put in that kind of time?

Long story, short: A pistol is great as a dedicated house gun but it requires more from the shooter to be competent with it. A shotgun is great and requires less to be competent.
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Old 07-24-2011, 02:41 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Oh sweet, we added the "Weapon mounted light vs non-Weapon Mounted Light" debate to the thread

Next up, Delta Force vs SEALS... who wins !!!??
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:48 AM   #36 (permalink)
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SEALs. Delta Force doesn't exist.

*rimshot*

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...

Okay... more talking points:

1. Civilians don't need to play Rambo like KirStang did. I'd never go outside unless someone was calling for help. Nothing in my front yard is worth getting shot over. That and in real life, Rambo goes to jail (for shooting someone) or worse (gets dead). As a Harry Homeowner, you should not confront an intruder unless they pose a direct threat to yourself or a loved one (say, you have to go get a kid down the hall). According to the handful of current SWAT cops I trained with yesterday, it is better to dial 911 on speaker phone, conceal yourself low near the stairs, and sound off with something like "Get out of my house. I am upstairs and I am armed. I do not want to shoot you. If you attempt to come upstairs, I will constitute it as a threat to my life and I will shoot you. Leave now." The reasoning behind the excessive cheesy line is that it is recorded by the E911 system (assuming you were smart enough to keep your cell phone on you / have speaker activated on the cell/land line). You stated your position and offered the intruder a choice. If the intruder decides to confront you after that speech, it's a safe bet that they were asking for it. CYA bullshit for sure, but it makes sense for 99% of situations.

2. I'm going to need Walt to explain the long gun vs. pistol "weapon competency" thing because it totally goes against the platform comparison points listed above. I'm a moron, so let's figure that one out. The manual of arms and the short distances one is operating at in a house come into play.

3. The strengths and weaknesses of handheld vs. weapon mounted flashlights has come into play here. The handheld camp (pistol only) and the weapon-mounted camp (pistol, rifle, shotgun)... ready-Fight! My personal philosophy is to mount the flashlight on the weapon and have a secondary flashlight available in a pants pocket, kit pouch (on my vest) or that old M16 bandoleer I use to hold loose 12g shells. I have no problem pointing a loaded weapon at an unknown someone in my house and strobe-ing them with the Surefire to establish friend or foe. It all comes back to training. You can just as easily "accidentally" shoot someone with a pistol while holding a flashlight in the other hand. Trigger discipline is trigger discipline, folks.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:01 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Sorry, couldn't help myself.


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Old 07-25-2011, 07:46 AM   #38 (permalink)
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well i went this weekend to a local gun range and shot a few different types of hand guns. I thought it was neat how you can just rent them for a few dollars and pay for ammo. i believe i like the glock 9mm tht i shot. it was very comfortale and felt good in my hand. i believe that it was a g-17. not sure. i havent dont any research on it yet.
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:49 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I would make the effort to warn an intruder, but if I have to shoot, I'll shoot till they're dead. All my cop friends tell me that's the only real option if using a firearm in your home. Two witnesses and one is dead.
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:45 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post
I'm going to need Walt to explain the long gun vs. pistol "weapon competency" thing because it totally goes against the platform comparison points listed above. I'm a moron, so let's figure that one out. The manual of arms and the short distances one is operating at in a house come into play.
IMHO, it is easier to aim and effectively put a dude down at close range with a shotgun than it is to do the same with a pistol (especially with multiple shots). Also, changing mags/adding extra shells, and clearing malfunctions requires less finesse with a pump shotgun than it does with a pistol.

I may be wrong but my impression was that the arguments against a shotgun as a house gun were that it's too complicated to operate and its too big to move with.

My counterargument was this: A pump shotgun takes less practice to successfully operate than a pistol. If someone cant put in the time to become proficient with a shotgun, they likely wont be putting in the time practicing something that is vastly more complicated like clearing a building with a more complicated weapon like a pistol. Because of that, any maneuverability benefits or a pistol are negated.

A Ferrari F350 might be the fastest car on the block, but its not going to win any races if the owner never learned to drive.
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