A Dance With Dragons (spoilers, spoilers, SPOILERS!)

First and foremost: if you haven't read the book, don't read this thread. If you're currently reading the book, don't read this thread. If you've only seen the TV show, don't read this thread.

Okay. So, if you get spoiled, totally not my fault. (although I should add, let's keep Winds of Winter spoilers on the down low, okay? If there even ARE any at this point.)

Moving on. I flew through this book, much like the others (I think I started on Wednesday, and finished very very early Sunday morning), and I know I should probably reread.... but I was bored for a lot of the book. 959 pages of...really...NOTHING HAPPENING.

Well, stuff happened, obviously. But a lot of it, I just didn't care about. I am sick to death of Slaver's Bay. I hated that Daenarys was basically reduced to "I can't make a decision, but oh, hey, sexy arrogant man...I'm going to pine for him until I finally get him into bed, then pine for him some more and marry someone else." And it REALLY pissed me off that two of the dragons were chained up and mostly ignored for a large portion of the book. Getting too big to handle? Yes, let's confine them to a dark pit, that will make them better.

Oh, something else I'm not fond of: STOP MAKING ME FEEL SORRY FOR PEOPLE THAT FUCK WITH THE STARKS! Jaime was bad enough...but now I've got all these weird pity emotions for Theon, too. Damn it.

Speaking of the Greyjoys....oh, Asha. You are a bitch and a badass, and seeing you reduced to a prisoner of Stannis made my blood boil. Seriously, she's the only Greyjoy I really care about (let's set aside those weird Theon feelings for now), and she was in chains an awful lot

Ummm...what else....oh, giving Melisandre a POV completely changed my view of her. I no longer think she's this totally evil thing so much as....she really has no idea what the hell she's doing. Gah!

And lastly, because I'm going to write 950 pages of my own if I don't stop soon: I don't believe Jon is dead. Eden and I started to get an argument going, but it got interrupted for some reason... it just...I don't know. When Robb died, you KNEW. There was no question. With Jon, it just felt like another cliffhanger.

Sheesh, I haven't even gotten to Arya and Jaime and Cersei and Quentyn yet..... but I'm stopping for now. What were your impressions? What did you like, or what do you want to bitch about? (I did bitch a lot, didn't I? There were a few things I enjoyed, I promise.)

 

That sums it up for me. I read on another forum that someone felt this was starting to drag like Robert Jordan's series did and I have to agree (although it has gotten great again in the last two books with Sanderson finishing the series).

This was the most long-winded of the series. And I also don't believe Jon is dead. I hope he lives and is not brought back as living through Ghost. I also was not happy with most of his point of views in the book. Wildlings? Who gives a fuck! You'd sacrifice half of your fleet to save a bunch of people who hate you.

I got this quote from said other web forum
"I liked the Melisandre POV, and I think that it's VERY clear that it's Jon the is actually Azor Ahai reborn. Ned Stark DID father a bastard with Ashara Dayne, but it was a girl. There's little room for doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna." Interesting. Another reason to believe he will survive his wounds.

I also HATE Victarion. He's a fucking pirate and murderer. Hope he get's his what he deserves early in Winds of Winter.

I'll write more later.

 

I initially had no clue what books/series this thread was referring to, but I realise after seeing the wikipedia page that the retailer I work for has one of those of books on the shelf now. Must be the latest in the series.
Is this worth checking out from the start? Or more importantly I should ask myself how far I would actually get on a five of planned to be seven book series right now.

 

Well, he DID make a very excellent point...any of the Wildlings they didn't take in were more likely to be killed by the Others, and therefore attack the Wall as wights. Besides the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" viewpoint, the less bodies for the Others to take, the better.

I should also amend my statement to read "I don't think Jon is PERMANENTLY" dead. He may very well inhabit Ghost for a while, if the men truly did kill him, but then? Well, Melisandre's on the Wall, and she's a Red Priestess. Since it's Melisandre, I can picture things going horribly wrong if she tries to bring Jon back... or maybe he'll be dead long enough to be able to leave the Night's Watch.... "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." That's probably just wishful thinking on my part, because Jon kicks ass and deserves some glory, damn it.

***
One of the new theories is that Cersei and Jaime are actually Targaryens. I don't believe that, but it's certainly interesting to think about. For one thing, it would mean Tommen on the throne is A-OK (according to the Targaryens past, anyway.)

Speed----- I'll be honest, I hesitate to recommend the series. Because it's like crack. I would legitimately feel bad for saying, "yes, my pretty. Read it, read it now!" lol...seriously, Game of Thrones is the first book. If you decide to read it, though, stop reading this thread!

 

It is taking all of my will to not read this page. I really really really really (really really) want to, but I'm not finished with the book yet (READ FASTER DAMN YOU MAN).

Yes, I love this series so much that I totally scrolled to the bottom of the page without reading anything to post this, because I lack self control to do otherwise. Also, I love Dance so far. It's a welcome surprise of awesome after the ponderously slow pace of much of Feast.

 

I loved the Wheel of Time series and read the first 5 or 6? when I was active duty military still. Next thing I know there is something like 6 more books in the series and Robert Jordan has died leaving it unfinished and probably running too long at that.
At this point I have to re-read from the start just to refresh my memory.

This series certainly sounds interesting, but they would fall under library checkouts at least to start with.

 

I just finished. Pretty sure Jon dies (it says he doesn't feel the fourth blade), but will most likely be back at some point. Ditto with the frustration re: Dany. The Quentyn parts were hilarious, particularly this part from the A Wiki of Ice and Fire summary of the book: "Quentyn visits Dany's two dragons, Viserion andRhaegal, and attempts to tame them. He dies of his burns three days later."

LOL

 

Finally finished the monster in a binge stay-up-until-5-AM session last night, and after having Dany and Jon be two of my most favorite POV characters for most of the series, I can honestly say that I dreaded their chapters in this book. It was almost painful to read Jon's, especially, and I seldom got excited about reading Dany's. I think he is wallowing more than a little bit in this phase of the book. He has more story and set up to get organized before the finale, but doesn't want to start in on the finale yet. There was a tangible sense of treadmilling here, and it was frustrating.

I also absolutely agree that having one dragon gone for almost the entire book and having the other two chained up in the basement was an incredibly lame way to approach them. Drogon's re-entrance ALMOST made it all worth it (since that was the most stunningly badass thing that'd happened since he melted that dude's face off in book 3), but then we didn't get another Dany perspective for basically the rest of the book, and when we did get back to her, it was this bizarre, almost surreal "I'm not sure what the fuck I'm doing, oh my god I'm so confused" sequence that ends on an almost incomprehensible "Hey remember this character from the first half of the first book? Yeah, he's going to be in the rest of the story, apparently."

I would agree 100% that Jon Snow is not dead in the way that Robb, Ned, Tywin, Joffrey and others aren't dead. I think Martin realized that he couldn't resolve Snow's storyline while he remained a member of the Night's Watch, and certainly not as the Lord Commander. I won't pretend to have a great guess as to how all of that will be tied up and resolved, but I would be absolutely shocked if he ends up being dead for good. That said, he was pretty much the spitting image of his father in this book. Do the most honorable thing possible, regardless of how smart it is in reality, then make everyone pissed off at you, then get (predictably) betrayed. He didn't show any of the ingenuity I'd come to appreciate in him before. His big picture notion (less dead wildlings=fewer wights) was certainly a great idea. Unfortunately it was also ridiculously impractical, and his dogheaded pursuit of the plan got a little hard to swallow.

There was painfully little Arya in the book, despite her storyline being one of the most interesting and compelling. The House of Black and White is easily one of Martin's best creations, and I was sad we got so little of it. Presumably we'll see more in Winds of Winter.

Ramsay Bolton easily surpassed Littlefinger as the most hated character in the series during this book. Not that I have any great love for Theon, but reading the Reek chapters was pretty terrifying. Ramsay is definitely one of the most vile characters put to paper, and having to be in such close proximity to him was hard to get through. I was, as I seem to consistently be, very sad that he got nothing resembling any comeuppance in this book and that, other than losing Jeyne and Theon, he still finds himself in a very good position at the end of the book. I do have to admit that it went completely over my head that the minstrel and the ladies at Winterfell were Mance and the spearwives. I don't know how I didn't catch that, but I most certainly did not. I felt pretty dumb when I read the letter, and then I felt even dumber when I realized that they'd been caught because they'd relied on abused, terrified Jeyne Poole to stay quiet during their escape. Not a good plan, that one.

I totally agree with Cinn that Asha's really come into her own as a badass and it was hard to see her a captive, but she remains a very good character. I also think it goes without saying that Ramsay is lying in his letter regarding Stannis since, obviously, if he'd really killed Stannis, he'd have found Jeyne and Theon. Obvious bluff is obvious (at least to the reader).

My pity for Cersei I think reached its zenith during Feast, because I was basically wholly uninterested in her chapters and plight this time around, especially the parts in which some frankenstein version of the Mountain is now in the Kingsguard and going to be her champion. That's pretty weak. I also thought the inclusion of exactly one Jaime chapter was an odd choice. I think we could've easily gone this book without knowing what he was doing and not been any worse off.

There's a lot to talk about in a book this big, but I think those are my early thoughts.

 

I too found a lot of the book tedious but I appreciate why it is so.

It's mostly a set-up for the next phase of Jon and Danaerys development. Over the course of the book, we see them again and again trying to stick to principles and inhabit roles that deny their true selves and against their surroundings. Naturally they fail in the end, though the outcomes are quite different. I think GRRM overplayed these points making the book overlong but their next roles should be kick-ass because of it.

I loved the punk-like image of Danaerys transformed. She is going to raise so much hell when she flies back to her city. I can't wait.

Jon's death really surprised me. What exactly was the motive? Was the rest of the order rebelling against his plans? Or was it a Wilding double cross? Did I miss something? Who was behind it?

As to his future, my first thought was that he will come back as some sort of super-wight but I guess Snow is the obvious fate. It's all foreshadowed by the death of the other Warg in the beginning of the book. I'm guessing he will be bouncing around between hosts until he lands the right one. I wonder if Bran will guide him.

My strongest emotional reaction in the book is when Arya changes her face, literally playing to the theme of denying ones true self and destiny. I was scared that we were going to lose her for good. I'm pulling for her and the other Starks so much, I'd be heartbroken if they all lose themselves in the end.

 

I don't remember the exact wording, but it was definitely his brothers that stabbed him.

I'm harboring this fantasy where the kind man asks, "who are you?" and instead of saying "no one," Arya is all, "I'm Arya Stark, bitch!"

Frosstbyte, I'm glad you finally finished!

I...can't say I felt sorry for Cersei. She totally deserved everything she got. HOWEVER, I was intensely uncomfortable during her walk through King's Landing. I can't really say I'd wish something like that on anyone. And the whole FrankenGregor thing? I can SOOOO see that going terribly wrong for everyone involved. I wonder what's under the helmet, though? Falyse's head? Nothing at all? Hmmmm.

I wanted to yell, "IT'S A TRAP!" after Jaime's chapter. I don't like the idea of Brienne luring him back to ZombieCatelyn to save her own skin, so I'm hoping there's something deeper at play here. Then again, I can't see Jaime and Cat (especially ZombieCat) ever working together, so I dunno.

 

Yeah, I don't think there's any real chance of reconciliation between Jaime and Cat unless somehow Jaime is able to rescue Sansa from Littlefinger and spirit her back to her mother. Although, how much Sansa wants to be with Lady Stoneheart (or how much Lady Stoneheart wants to still play mother) I suppose is anyone's guess. Cat is no longer the Cat we spent three books with. That's for sure. But they did have some understanding and some respect for one another, enough so that she was willing to essentially commit treason and break him out of prison to try to help her.

There are some very interesting comparisons and contrasts to be made between Arya's process of losing her face and becoming no one and Theon/Reek's re-identification process (from Theon to Reek and back). I'm not at all bothered by the notion of Arya losing her identity and becoming a faceless man, either. Obviously faceless men aren't completely beholden to living in Braavos at the House of Black and White, and her story will have to return her to Westeros as Arya in some capacity, but I think it's a fascinating transformation for her to go through in the meantime while the threads spread out even further before they (hopefully) start to come together in the next book.

I think on a re-read, Jon's "death" will be as obvious and inevitable as Ned's and Robb's were. Adhering blindly to principle, even when it's the "right thing to do" (and perhaps especially when it's the "right thing to do") is a good way to lose your head. Both Ned and Robb's deaths were horribly shocking the first time you read the book, but I think for most of us the clues were all there the second time around (Robb's especially-his conversations with Cat are enough to make you want to smash your face on a desk).

 

Mormont/Snow's Crow had some of the best dialogue. Maybe he will get his own chapter next book, then get pecked to death by a bunch of pigeons.

 

As previously mentioned I do see these books on the shelf at work but do not see myself getting a series like this anytime soon from the start. If anything I should start tackling one of my own scifi/fantasy (yeah right)/end of the world/or other storylines that are buried in note form still.

 

I dunno. I'm really not displeased with it. I've found the series a bit variable in general-- though I love it to death-- so the fact that this book had a few slow bits doesn't really faze me. Clearly he's got a couple more to go, and I'm happy to trust that they will balance this one out.

And he left delicious cliffhangers and potential red herrings, as usual. Whether that will be the last of Jon or not, how Danaerys will tame Drogon and return, at what point Arya will give up trying to be No One, and whether Cersei will be able to recover from her humiliation enough to wreak some more havoc before someone kills her....

Yeah, I'm cool with it.

 

I liked it more than the 4th book, but I agree with many of the problems others have cited above. Let's hope book 6 is not: "The Chime of Choads."

 

I finished this last week. I don't know - I feel like this was filler. I've never been hugely enamoured of the Dany sections of the previous books and this one was bad as well - I just don't care about slavers bay and so much of this part of the story didn't really seem to move very far.

I just hope we don't have to wait (how long was it??) 5 years for the next one.

 

I also hope we don't have to wait that long for the next book.

 

I didn't pay much attention to Dany my first time through the series, before Dance came out... the second and third times, though, she was one of my favorites (and a large part of why I've become such a Targaryen fan.) That may be why I was so disappointed with Dance-- I spent most of the book yelling, "seriously, Dany, get your ass MOVING!"

I think I'm going to start rereading this week (after I get done rereading Mistborn.) Seven save me.

 

I bought my brother the Mistborn series for his birthday, assuming they'll come back to me when he is done. Evil, I know, but he is enjoying them so it is only a little selfish!