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A loving God that instills fear of punishment as His "love"?

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by pan6467, Nov 27, 2011.

  1. Eddie Getting Tilted

    No, salvation is not bestowed upon anyone that is not born into God's eternal family. God is Spirit and in order to be with God you must be born into spirit.
     
  2. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    A better demonstration: According to Christians, one could live an ascetic life of non-violence, compassion, and forgiveness but still go to hell for being a secular humanist or something other than Christian.

    This would mean that both Gautama Buddha and Mohandas Gandhi (among many others) are both burning there in eternal torment as we speak. (Not to mention all the ancient Greeks and other people from the pre-Christian cultures.)

    No, I don't believe this. I was born and raised and atheist. This is based on Judaism as far as I know, and it seems the most plausible. According to your view of Christianity, all the Jews are going to hell unless they accept Jesus.

    “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” –Hildegard Brem (as quoted approvingly by Pope Benedict)

    All Jews going to hell doesn't make sense. They're God's chosen people. Then again, the Bible does have many contradictions. I was just reading how a number of theologians support the idea that Jews will be saved independent of Christ. But this just adds to the contradictions. It would seem one would need to "forget" the Old Testament in order to believe the New Testament. Even then, I'm sure there are more contradictions.
     
  3. Eddie Getting Tilted

    A person doesn't go to hell for being or doing anything. Any more than a person is saved by being or doing anything. A person goes to hell because they reject Christ. There is only one way to salvation...if you reject it, well that's your choice.
     
  4. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    How convenient. Murder your family, accept Christ, eternal salvation. Profit!
     
  5. samcol

    samcol Getting Tilted

    Location:
    indiana
    many jews did accept him. all of the apostles and jesus himself were jewish as i recall. it was the established leaders of judaism like the pharisees that rejected him as well as many of their people.

    i compare this to what i see in organized religion today. many of them dont really follow the words jesus said and it's all about going to church singing songs and feeling good. jesus wasn't a fan of the organized establishment of religion. in fact he hung around the fornicators, the theives, the sinners etc because there is no reward in saving the righteous.

    the whole talk of the only way to the father is through me boils down to everyone will have to accept jesus as the messiah in this life or during the resurrection. rejecting him is the only unforgivable sin. i dont believe your condemned to hell because you never knew him. god establishes different covenants with different people and their decedents. adam and eve to not eat the forbidden fruit, noah with his 7 noahide codes, abraham with circumsion, moses with his 600 some laws and now jesus's new covenant.

    some are more strict than others which is why i believe on one hand the jews have been blessed with great wealth, but on the other hand have received terrible persecution possibly for straying from their covenant.

    just my 2 cents.
     
  6. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    You do realize that this condensed version of what is required to enter the kingdom is a very new concept, don't you? Created for the modern man and woman who are too busy to take the more difficult path, as Jesus did. If I remember correctly, it was brought to market at around the same time as the microwave oven.
     
  7. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Eddie and samcol

    Judaism will probably accept Christ as the Messiah when (or if) he proves himself to be so. I don't know if this means Jesus is being "rejected" or merely that he's not yet revealed himself properly and so Jews are waiting for it to happen. Again, it all depends on the Second Coming. God's plan isn't complete, and I'm guessing the plan doesn't include sending all the Jews to hell. What kind of fuck-up would that be? What a shitty plan, right?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Eddie Getting Tilted

    The Messiah has already been to earth. He performed miracles, he raised people from the dead, he healed the sick, he turned water into wine, he walked on water. The main problem that the Jewish people have is their addiction to the law. The law was provided by God to the Jews as a means to live until the coming of the Messiah. Everything in the Old Testament was a build-up to the coming of Jesus.

    But when the messiah came, the Jews didn't want to let go of their precious law. See, it was priests(pharisees and saducees) who had the biggest issue with Jesus. These priests, the keepers of the law, didn't want to let go of their power. Even though Jesus had fulfilled every single sign that had been given by God to the Jews, they still rejected him. Their arrogance and pride is their downfall.

    And once again, I don't believe that all Jews are going to hell. I believe that all people who reject Jesus are going to hell.
     
  9. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Even Ghandi? Even Buddah? Even those who do amazing things every day for their families and communities?
     
  10. Eddie Getting Tilted

    Doing good things doesn't get you into heaven, anymore than doing bad things sends you to hell.
     
  11. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    So your God is so insecure that he needs worship in order to let people into Heaven? He also doesn't care how much good (or bad) we do in the world so long as we worship HIM?

    Doesn't sound like a God that deserves my attention
     
  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    So how was it determined which laws no longer applied and which did? How do you view the Old Testament in light of the New Testament? What about God's covenant with Abraham? Was that broken too? Does God do that?

    What do you make of this?

    http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus#1

    Did Jesus do all these things? If not, It looks to me that the Jews might have to wait for the Second Coming, as I've implied. (Though as stated in the quoted text, a Second Coming would prove Jews wrong in one respect. I'm not sure what the text says about that.)

    Maybe the Jews need the Messiah to fulfill the prophecy before they accept Him. It's not too much to ask; they're just obeying God's word, aren't they?

    These two did good things for other reasons.
     
  13. Eddie Getting Tilted

    God doesn't need anything. He is perfect.
     
  14. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Then why does he care what we do?
     
  15. Eddie Getting Tilted

    The law is dead. It died with Jesus on the Cross.
    The Old Testament is just that...Old, expired.
    Romans 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
    --- merged: Nov 29, 2011 5:05 PM ---
    He doesn't.
     
  16. Bodkin van Horn

    Bodkin van Horn One of the Four Horsewomyn of the Fempocalypse

    God is the ultimate bureaucrat. It doesn't matter what you did in life. If you don't have your "I believe in the Jesus" documentation filled out in triplicate, you're burning in hell forever and ever.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Okay, help me out here. One role of the Son of God was to make null and void the previous words of God? The Son of God was sent to break laws, to break covenants, to have God go back on his promises?

    Do we have to worry about another great flood?

    Christianity is clever. It's the master appropriator. Back in the day, Christian holidays were pagan ones. Curious, isn't it?
     
  18. Eddie Getting Tilted

    God has his own documentation.

    Revelation 20:15 "And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire."
    --- merged: Nov 29, 2011 5:12 PM ---
    The Old Testament is 100% true. And the Jesus wasn't sent to defy the law, he was sent to fulfill it and by fulfilling it, ending it.
     
  19. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Either the Old Testament is flawed or Jesus didn't fulfill it. So did he defy the law?
     
  20. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    so he DOESN'T care if we accept Jesus?