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Are our leaders both bad & good? Should we expect them to be perfect?

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by rogue49, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    If anyone is seriously real...they should know that people are not one neat package.
    There is a duality & contradiction.

    There is bad in a good person, and a bad person can do good.
    And in reality, this fluxes through-out life with an individual.

    So why do we expect our leaders to be "perfect"??

    Or do we hold them to a certain standard...then start making exceptions and rationalization?

    I just read a good article on JFK, on how he was both a hero and monster.
    http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/2012/02/jfk-hero-creep/272736
    What do you think?
    Not just about him, but others, or yourselves as leaders or just a person.
    Where is your line in the sand?
     
  2. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I dont look for perfection.

    I want political leaders who understand public policy, not Joe the Plumber types or the man/woman next door who some seem to think is more "real" and would better represent the people despite having no demonstrated leadership qualities or a demonstrated willingness to view complex issues objectively.

    I want a leader who has core beliefs and will act on those beliefs particularly when unpopular but, at the same time, have enough confidence and curiosity to seek out other positions w/o feeling threatened and be willing to adopt those positions as well if it is for the greater good.

    What I dont look for in a leader is an ideology that is so rigid and so driven by an extreme position that the adverse outcomes are never considered.

    I want a leader who is not afraid to make a mistake, but what I find most offensive and ignorant is when a broad public policy is criticized based on one extreme isolated example/mistake.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. samcol

    samcol Getting Tilted

    Location:
    indiana
    i really think politicians can be simplified into a couple categories. one is pure evil who pretend and even often pass good legislation in order to keep a somewhat positive public opinion, but when it comes to super important issues they tend to go the way of tyranny.

    the second type is basically has good intentions and wants to help people, but are naive about situations and are often persuaded by the pure evil politicians and corporations. this group can vary greatly and my opinion of them tends to fall on my personal political beliefs.

    the third type are the ones that are obsessed with celebrity. they are just in it for themselves and the fame/wealth/popularity that comes with the office.

    to me the 2nd type is the best, because even if i disagree with someone who has good intentions i can at least respect them for trying to do the best for the people.

    perfect politician? nope.
     
  4. Hektore

    Hektore Slightly Tilted

    Perfection from a human being is always an unreasonable expectation.
     
  5. SuburbanZombie

    SuburbanZombie Housebroken

    Location:
    Northeast
    I don't expect them to be perfect.
    I do expect them to not be hypocritical.
     
  6. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    It is impossible for some leader to be perfect to everyone. The problem is figuring out how to convince the people who don't agree with a decision on why it is best for them and society in the future.
     
  7. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    The kind of person who should be a leader often has no desire to pursue it.

    Politics tends to attract the power hungry and corrupt
     
  8. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    No one is perfect. Perfection is a construct, abstract at best.

    Good leaders seek paths that will best benefit those to whom they are responsible. Good leaders aren't necessarily those who don't make mistakes; they are those who take responsibility for their mistakes and the mistakes of others. Good leaders know what choices to make based on a set of circumstances that arise, whether or not they came about from outside their influence of control.

    Bad leaders simply make decisions that help them cling to power.

    One takes responsibility, the other makes scapegoats.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Yet, many of our leader try to portray themselves as perfect.
    Or avoid any noting or awareness of imperfections.

    And our media goes after any thing that is not perfect, promoting those in their target sight to seek a face saving grace.

    And even the public sometimes is ruthless, gobbling up any "negative" action or themselves being self-righteous and judgmental.

    --------------------

    For me, quite frankly, I could care less if someone is getting a blowjob or having a fling...that is irrelevant to my needs, unless there is actual abuse.
    And I'm cynical enough to understand that those in control might get a few perks or leverage their connections...so what? It's good to be the king.

    But what I'm looking for, are those that hiding instead of doing their work...giving away the house to special interests.
    Making laws in my personal business for their own moral code...wasting time & money by not monitoring budgets and process.
    Basically shirking their job I put them there for, not looking out for me and not trying to make our nation, state, city, etc...better.

    There is a reason this is a Representative government, and not a pure Democracy.
    I don't want to do this shit...I don't have time for it, I don't know the details, I don't have the resources...and I sure as hell can't keep everyone happy at once.
    You want to be a politician, then do the job, work for me.

    Let's face it, a good percentage of the population is stupid, ignorant or insane, but they get the vote too, and that's fine...another reason vs. pure Democracy.
    They need people who'll work them too...still do the job.
    Represent.
     
  10. Manic

    Manic Getting Tilted

    Location:
    NYC
    No one really expects our leaders should be perfect. Perfection along with all the other meaningless, incalculable and wholly superficial characteristics typically bandied about in spectacular fashion are used to mask the complete lack of differences between candidates and the total lack of verbiage addressing issues of real material value. Like an endless array of toothbrushes for sale, none any different than any you've had before or will ever have in the future, a wealth of options dressing a dearth of true alternatives.

    You could say the first point causes the second but it all takes place within the same apparatus to no externally meaningful end. There's no real concern over morally reprehensible or "sexually deviant" behavior, no consequential interests that aren't special, no real jobs to be had or to do.

    To put it without straying too far beyond the initial post, in more ways than you'd guess, representation is indeed all we have.
     
  11. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Maybe if we can get our media to be less tabloid...more investigative. (I know, I know...that requires "work")
    And our people a bit more reflective, than reactive.

    Then perhaps...

    But then again, maybe I just want it to be quiet.
    And our leaders to be able to focus on their damn job....rather than a constant tap-dance. (I mean the good ones, not the asshats)
     
  12. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    I don't think any rational person expects their leaders to be perfect. Or anyone, for that matter. Perfection is outside attainability for human beings.

    I know I certainly don't need my leaders to be perfect. What I would like, however, is for my leaders not to be a bunch of narcissistic, greedy, thieving dicks. I personally don't think that's too much to ask, although judging from American government over the course of my lifetime, it seems to be too much to hope for.
     
  13. EventHorizon

    EventHorizon assuredly the cause of the angry Economy..

    Location:
    FREEDOM!
    i think that we shouldn't. of the candidate pool that people have to choose leaders from, there are lots of shitty leaders and a few nuggets of gold, so naturally, those nuggets of gold need to perform better than those whom they beat out
     
  14. loquitur

    loquitur Getting Tilted

    The best people I know won't even consider politics. And the politicians I know aren't necessarily bad guys (I havne't personally met any female politicians yet, though I"m sure in time I will) but they are by no means the most endowed with good judgment. For the most part they have severe, almost pitiful, ego issues. And people with ego issues can't have consistently good judgment because their egos get in the way. But it seems to me that the one thing you absolutely have to have in a leader is good judgment.

    I never met him, but the big exception in my lifetime so far as I can tell was Pat Moynihan. Brilliant guy, didn't need to be Senator, but served honorably and well (this after being an adviser to several presidents of both parties). I like what I'm seeing of Alan Simpson, and I wish I noticed him back when he was in the Senate. After that, it's almost a wasteland.
     
  15. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    read machiavelli. or suetonius even. it doesn't matter how a leader is. it matters how that leader appears to be. to the extent that there's a critical function to the tabloid press, that's where it lay--undermining the image. the problem is that the work it does tends not to be done on the basis of information about political matters, still less on political argument. it's all about personal lives. so an anti-political politics, really. that's how things roll when a society determines that information is a commodity and that in the press information transmission---which you'd think would be pretty important for a democratic polity, wouldn't you?-----can be replaced with selling infotainment. capitalism is grand like that. politics is like shopping. that said, there's a tendency---which is really pronounced---on the part of the american "free" press to act as though there's never been a status quo it did not support.
     
  16. loquitur

    loquitur Getting Tilted

    But if even an egghead like me can tell that these people are emotionally stunted and needy, they're not appearing to be very good, are they? Even a guy who was pretty effective and good at his job, like Bill Clinton, had that defect.

    As for the "press," the institutional press is no longer the sum total of possible sources of information. yes, the institutional press is, well, institutional. Not all other speakers are. But you're also overlooking the fact that the press in general, including the peanut gallery press, has made it pretty much impossible for any self-respecting, reasonably well-adjusted person to want to go through what one needs to go through to get elected.
     
  17. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    loquitor--o i wasn't disputing what you wrote... more a reach around (i suppose there's a better term for that, something closer to what i actually mean without added materials. but it's late in the afternoon so i think it's funny.) long ago, before the interwebs and cell phones when cars moved very slowly on top of wheels that were square (easier to manufacture) i was getting on the boston subway. on the platform, there was a guy playing violin---he was quite accomplished if i remember---and handing out flyers in between pieces. the one he gave me argued that anyone who's sense of self was so damaged that they required the affirmation of millions to feel ok about themselves should be in therapy and not running for president of the united states or any other public office. the main difference between your version and this one---both of which i agree with---is that the paper i was handed came with a solicitation to join a mailing list. it said i could join for free but it'd cost me 5 dollars to get taken off. at the time, i liked getting mail, so i signed up. but i never got anything.
     
  18. loquitur

    loquitur Getting Tilted

    so then you managed to save $5, didn't you.