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Caitlyn Jenner

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by snowy, Jun 3, 2015.

Page 6 of 7
  1. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    It's not political correctness, though. It's modern language and common courtesy.

    Like, get with the times, people.
     
    snowy, Jul 14, 2015
    #101
  2. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    "Short of walking into a conversation, sandblasting the brick, and installing track lighting, there is no surer way to announce one is from the 1980s than to mount an assault on 'political correctness,' the contemporary phrase for which is 'not being a jackass.'"
    —Tabatha Southey​
     
    Baraka_Guru, Jul 14, 2015
    #102
    • Like Like x 2
  3. POPEYE

    POPEYE Very Tilted

    Location:
    Tulsa
    I'm not banging on the LGBT community. what ever choices people make is their life. I do see the media walking on egg shells around this " Bruce " transformation. I don't need anyone to join my team so I will feel better about my choices, And yes you can call me a jackass, doesn't hurt me. However I do not need anyone or anything to take my temperature and validate me as a person or a man." I am who I am and that's all that I am,." Popeye said that and still holds true.
     
    POPEYE, Jul 14, 2015
    #103
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    Does anyone seriously think/believe that Jenner--

    Was not counting on some controversy to help the ratings of her* new "reality" shows?

    Made it a major publicity event to benefit the LGBT community, without considering how it would benefit her**?

    Didn't know in advance that some people, even some in the LGBT community, will question her* motives? Won't accept her** as truly trans-gendered?

    * his
    ** him

    ---------------------------------------------

    Hell, if we're going to accept without reservations whatever people decide to declare and want, consider this scenario:

    I declare myself to be transformed from a normal human being into a Supreme Spiritual Being, and I now want to be called Jesus H. Christ.

    If you refuse to recognize my request, perhaps consider it delusional thinking, does that make you politically incorrect?

    If you say that a man should be recognized as woman without actually being woman just because he requests it, is my request any different? If he can be a complete woman in his mind, I can be a Supreme Spiritual Being in my mind.

    My point is personal beliefs come into play, and it's not always a matter of being clearly "right" or "wrong."
     
    Chris Noyb, Jul 15, 2015
    #104
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    These are issues outside of the transgender issue though, aren't they?

    The problem with this example is that the idea of a Supreme Spiritual Being is purely conceptual, whereas gender is real.

    Also, this scenario reminds me of arguments against homosexuality generally and same-sex marriage specifically. I'm thinking of the kinds of arguments such as 1) homosexuality is a choice, and 2) if we allow same-sex marriage, we may eventually allow marriages to animals and minors.

    The bottom line specific to your scenario, though, is this: I don't know of anyone who accepts without reservations whatever people decide to declare and want. What we're discussing here is transgenderism specifically.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015
    Baraka_Guru, Jul 15, 2015
    #105
    • Like Like x 1
  6. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    I'll believe you are a supernatural being when you can make monkeys fly out of my butt. But I do believe that Bruce Jenner has become Caitlyn Jenner. I can see that with my own two eyes. Caitlyn Jenner has implants. Maybe if you permanently attached some angel wings to your back.
     
    omega, Jul 15, 2015
    #106
    • Like Like x 1
  7. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    snowy, Jul 15, 2015
    #107
    • Like Like x 2
  8. martian

    martian Server Monkey Staff Member

    Location:
    Mars

    You know, at first that was going to be my reply. But it's not an honest reply, because you don't need implants to be trans. You don't need to dress as a woman to be trans. To be trans, you need one thing and one thing only: to feel like your gender is incorrect, and to feel it strongly enough to want to take action to correct it.

    So, y'know. I could say that the supreme being bullshit is bullshit because you can't identify as something that's imaginary, and that would be accurate. And I could also say that you have to actually identify as something in order to claim it as your identity and that would also be accurate. But ultimately I just feel like it's a waste of time to engage disingenuous bullshit arguments because they're disingenuous bullshit and even if you can counter them the goalposts will move again until the bullshit argument is so absurd that there's just no valid rebuttal. And that's not a game I feel like playing.

    This shit is real simple: there's a right side of history and there's a wrong side of history. And if you're choosing not to recognize the rights of other people because of something like identity or sexual preference, you're on the wrong side of history. I feel like that should be obvious, but if it isn't there it is spelt out for you. You are the modern day racist, and some day probably soon you're going to be considered backwards and outmoded and maybe just kind of awful, like old racist people are today. If that's what you're going for, then I guess that's on you. Otherwise you might want to take a good hard look at your preconceptions and wonder if maybe there could be a bad assumption in there somewhere.
     
    martian, Jul 15, 2015
    #108
  9. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Was that all directed at me? Or at chris?
     
    omega, Jul 15, 2015
    #109
  10. martian

    martian Server Monkey Staff Member

    Location:
    Mars
    It's not directed at any specific person, but if it were it wouldn't be you. I was just piggybacking off what you wrote because I started in the same place before I decided that no, I don't have to explain what does or does not make someone trans and why stupid arguments to the contrary are stupid. I've done that already, and I don't feel like playing that game anymore.
     
    martian, Jul 15, 2015
    #110
    • Like Like x 1
  11. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Appreciate the clarification. I didn't think it was directed at me. And I agree, it's not just whimsically declaring yourself. I think most people would find it a real challenge, at least with current sociological programming, to assume the opposite gender. I know it would be a challenge to me to slip on a dress, heels,and hose, and make myself look like a woman. I wouldn't recognize myself in the mirror. I wouldn't see my self image projected back at me. I could do it as a lark,a joke, but not seriously. So my feeling is that anyone who is willing to do that must really want to. I sure as hell couldn't do it just for a reality TV show.
     
    omega, Jul 16, 2015
    #111
  12. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    Folks, I did write scenario. The point is simply declaring yourself to be something doesn't make it true, & expecting automatic acceptance is delusional.

    Jenner has every right to consider "herself" a woman. I hope that "she" is now at peace with "herself."
    --IMO "she" is not truly a woman. Simply declaring it doesn't make it so. Mostly a woman, yes; completely, no.

    Jenner made "her" trans-gendering very public. Hopefully the attention helps others with gender identification issues.
    --IMO it was not handled so publicly strictly for altruistic reasons. Jenner is being an attention whore, and has strong financial reasons for making it public.

    I take a live-and-let-live attitude towards just about anyone, including LGBTs.
    --That does not mean I have to automatically accept someone as the opposite sex just because that is what they want.
    IMO a person who is trans-gendering, but won't let go of the genitalia that makes them a certain sex, will never be truly trans-gendered. That view is not right (as many people have posted in this thread), and it is not wrong (my opinion).

    Obviously financial resources, proper medical facilities, etc. play a large role in how far a person could take
    trans-gendering.
    --Those issues do not apply to Jenner, other than the waiting period, whatever it might be.

    If Jenner has some very real and sincere concerns about the trans-gender surgery, that is understandable.
    --If Jenner simply doesn't want the surgery, my question is "Why not, if becoming a woman is the goal?".


    I wish Jenner all the best, even though I currently don't consider Jenner to be woman. OTOH I really don't want to hear much else about Jenner.

    ------------------------------

    This obviously a major hot-button topic for you, @Martian. Your inability to view this as a grey area surprises me. If you're going throw around insults, at least have the backbone to address them directly to the intended party/parties.
     
    Chris Noyb, Jul 16, 2015
    #112
    • Like Like x 1
  13. martian

    martian Server Monkey Staff Member

    Location:
    Mars
    I continue to attack the argument and not the person because attacking the person continues to be not my style. Feel free to point it out if you feel I have missed the mark on that. And if you want me to say it directly then I will: your argument is bullshit and I think you should seriously reconsider the assumptions on which you base it. You and several other people in this thread appear to be stuck in what seems to be a deliberately obtuse mode of thinking where you feel the need to deny someone's right to self-autonomy because... I don't know why, to be honest. I cannot fathom it, and nothing you've said so far has shed any light on it. So perhaps that will be forever a mystery to me.

    Perhaps my communication style makes it seem like I'm more upset than I am. I wouldn't call this a hot button issue, but I also most certainly don't see any grey area when it comes to human rights. Either you respect the rights of others or you don't. There's nothing grey about it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2015
    martian, Jul 16, 2015
    #113
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Relevant: Some Scientific Journals Are Still Confusing Sex and Gender | Smart News | Smithsonian

    As a trans woman, Jenner doesn't require a vagina, nor does she require a desire for one.

    I know this has been said in this thread, but it needs to be reiterated.

    If you were truly live and let live regarding transgendered people, you'd accept that genital reassignment surgery isn't a requirement. Not everyone puts the same stock in genitalia when it comes to gender identity.

    At the risk of appearing condescending, I want to point out that the prefix trans- means "across, through, over, beyond, to or on the other side of, outside of" and is applied in the case of transgender because it isn't a binary switch from one gender to another. This is why the genitalia issue isn't a be-all and end-all thing.

    What you're saying about Jenner is actually more generally a comment about transgenderism. At first I thought maybe you considered Jenner a fraud regarding her current expressed gender identity, but your comments here tell me more about your views on transgenderism.

    Personally, I don't care much about Jenner specifically. My concern is your views on transgenderism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2015
    Baraka_Guru, Jul 16, 2015
    #114
    • Like Like x 1
  15. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    If you haven't watcher her acceptance speech for the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at the ESPYs last night, do:

    Caitlyn Jenner accepts Arthur Ashe Courage Award at ESPYS -- ashe2015
    --- merged: Jul 16, 2015 at 12:50 PM ---
    I've included a link to the full text of her speech, should you care to read her speech in its entirety, but I think this one sentence sums up why this really matters to me:

    "If you want to call me names, make jokes, doubt my intentions, go ahead, because the reality is I can take it. But for the thousands of kids out there who are coming to terms with being true to who they are, they shouldn’t have to take it."

    Read the full text of Caitlyn Jenner’s powerful speech at ESPYs - The Washington Post
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2015
    snowy, Jul 16, 2015
    #115
  16. POPEYE

    POPEYE Very Tilted

    Location:
    Tulsa
    Quite frankly I'm done with this dumb ass " Jenner " thread. This was about B.J. right? I'd like to thank @omega, @Martian, and @Baraka Guru for turning this into personal attacks and questioning the morals or civil rights attitudes for all that may have a different opinion than yours. This is a place where we can express our thoughts with the world, right? So that's what makes THE TFP awesome. So I'm going to go be awesome on a different thread. ;)
     
    POPEYE, Jul 16, 2015
    #116
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    I'll state it as simply as I can:

    1. Any person has the right to transgender. If that is what they believe will makes them happy, let them do it. I would not make fun of such a person, call them pejorative names, hold it against them, deny them whatever rights they might have as their chosen sex, etc.

    2. I have the personal right not consider them fully transgendered if they choose (financial & medical considerations aside) to keep their birth genitalia. If they feel that they were born the wrong sex, they should make the change complete....IMO.

    3. I would apply this to a very close friend the same as I do to Jenner. This is not something that I would mention directly or indirectly in casual conversation IRL. If IRL someone really pushed for my honest thoughts, I'd tell them, with no apology.


    So far I've resisted the urge to return the insults and juvenile comments in kind. It's time to leave this thread to the 'if you don't agree with me then you're wrong' crowd. Partly I'm disappointed because it seems that some people here apply agree-to-disagree only when it suits them. Partly I don't give a shit about your opinion of my thoughts.
     
    Chris Noyb, Jul 16, 2015
    #117
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    Sorry. I have read a number of the posts here and I am just not seeing any of this. I am seeing plain spoken disagreement with you, but nobody is attacking you personally. If anyone is reacting poorly here it might be you.

    People don't agree with your ideas. They are pointing out why. In fact, this thread has been more civilized than many others with similarly contested subject matter.
     
    Charlatan, Jul 16, 2015
    #118
  19. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    To me, the idea of making Jenner's present transgender identity somehow retroactive as far as titles and gender labels go is totally absurd. I can (and perhaps will) change my opinion. I could probably be led in that direction. Good examples of posts that lead to changes of position are often seen in posts by @Levite. Thank you, @Levite.

    It feels to me that for those of us who look at this controversy a little differently, well some are just trying to bully any outliers into accepting a very narrow new orthodoxy. Do we no longer have a right to be wrong thinkers? Time to reorient? To not drink the kool aid?

    Some of the posts in this thread by @Martian especially sure come off as insulting and bullying to me. Of course, if you agree with his point of view, you may not see it that way.
    I generally take a live and let live position as to how I treat other people. Hetero, GLBT, whatever.
    I can't so easily control my thoughts which have a long history and reflect my past as well as the present.
     
    Lindy, Jul 17, 2015
    #119
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    I think too much of this conversation is coloured by the fact that we are talking about someone famous and tied to the Kardashian thing.

    (It's funny, I honestly had no idea that Jenner was part of that family until all of this exploded into the press)

    Anyone here is free to think whatever they want, regardless of what side of history you end on. To me, this discussion is like most in this vein... People are uncomfortable with change.
     
    Charlatan, Jul 17, 2015
    #120
    • Like Like x 2
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