demons and Islam

I asked here (I think) once and half jokingly if Muslim vampires would be afraid of crosses.

But I think its also a serious question to.

A small but significant number of people experience events that they understand as demonic possession/infestation/oppression. The rites of exorcism often have a positive effect on ending these experiences.

I am certain that some people who claim these things are simple frauds, play actors... but I cannot believe that all of them are. From the things I have read and seen in the media, most of these people seem to be genuinely traumatised, whether or not the experiences they have are caused by real demonic forces, simple pyschological disease, or some at present little understood influance of the human will on the world... I believe that many people really experience these things.

_

I think now that (although there are millions, maybe more than a billion) atheists and agnostics, the majority of the world is now divided by places were Islamic or Christian ideology is the dominant view of the spiritual world.

I understand (although I am no expert) that in Islam the devil and other demons are viewed in a different way. That the devil is not an adversary of God, but rather an irrelevant jester almost, a fool.

I am interested, genuinely, in peoples views or knowledge which is better than mine - in the Islamic world where the devil is not so terrible, do the same kinds of experiences of demonic intervention in the human world still occur?

Do devils really only "possess" guilty Catholics? Or are the same experiences shared by others who just have different ways of understanding them?

 

Would vampires be afraid of a Star of David?

 

I don't think all those people who are "possessed" are frauds either but I do think that there it is tendency of the human mind to explore the aspects that it is most afraid of. I think this is the reason why we like horror stories and also why there are people who hurt themselves for the thrill of it or whatever. Personally I used to be very much afraid of... well not really losing my mind but rather not being able to tell when my mind plays tricks on me. As a kid I often imagined that someone (usually my mom) was calling me from somewhere allthough nobody was actually there. It was just what part of my mind expected or wished for. I wondered what would happen if these experiences would become more frequent and intense so that I couldn't trust my own senses anymore. I also was very afraid of the dark (I still am to a certain degree) and my parents used to tell me that ghosts and monsters don't exist and there's nothing to be afraid of, like parents would say. But what if my imagination was so convincing that I would experience it just like reality. In that case, it doesn't really matter whether demons exist in real life or not - they would be real for me. I still believe that those monsters exist somewhere in my mind, waiting for their chance to take over. I think possession is a mental illness just like auto aggression - these people "summon" their monsters because they are drawn to that part of their mind and their ability to tell what's real and what's not has been messed with somehow. oh well, that wasn't really your question, was it? sorry about that. can't help you with djinns and stuff.

 

Memnoch is also described as being 'he who questioned God' - for this, he was cast down. In most religions, you will find the trickster (Norse and Lakota for two), he is a trickster, one who questions divine right, but generaly put in opposite of the good creator because of his personality and actions. As for fraudulent exorcism type stuff - reminded me of the Earnest Ainsley Hour. Why does God want you the viewer to send money to the coffers of the evangelist - surely, as a rich man can not pass into heaven, you would be doing them a favour by not sending them money.
Light and Dark.
Harry, you are obviously young. I have some dementia plants in the garden. I call them that because the daft old bat forgot to label them and cant remember what she planted. So, they will stay dementia suprise - I know they are not dragon fruit, as I planted and marked them, not passion fruit, because I know th pot looks at me when I open he back door. For the life of me, I cant remember what the others are. I think there are tricks you could start learning now for as you get older, and if I remember rightly, omega something or other oil is good for brain and memory. Obviously in earlier years I did not pay heed to such advice.
Of course monsters exist. Look at the world. Look at Norway. Parents dont let the monsters get you, thats what it is.

 

Possession is likely to occur in the individual and cultural language of the person being possessed. That is the language needed to address it.

To exorcise is similar to giving tech support. What is their operating system [Christian, Islam etc]? Their present skills in navigating it lets you know much hand holding or establishing of terms you'll need to do. If you can get some idea of what they are like when they are not possessed, or better still what they could be like, then so much the better, because you now have something to aim for; though a well organised culture usually gives a template for the exit from as well as the entry into posession. If you're going for straight exorcism, the cultural template may be enough. If you're going for personal solution beyond 'From Ill to Well Within the given system' - ie out of that game entirely rather than just away from being 'in' the negative option of the game, then you need their individual specifications.

Take the game Monopoly. The 'Get out of Jail' process, by missing turns is a redemption, or by the Get-Out Card, an exorcism .... there IS a feeling of freedom and return to the Light WITHIN the game. One is, however, still 'possessed' by Monopoly itself. A simple "Get out of jail" needs no questions, because 'next' is determined by the rules of the game, in which is embedded its purpose. However, when people want to stop playing Monopoly, there is no necessary 'go to' provided. Individual specifications need to be established; "Oh .. what will we do next" is a valid question.

There are many different board games, many different cultures. Each has its own unique 'thumbs up/down' criteria and maps for navigation between those poles.

I believe it really is 'Horses for courses' ... lap after lap .... until it is time to exorcise ourselves and each other into the world beyond the daze at the races, to distinguish and release individual karma from cultural karma. And to redevelop a sense of US whose 'them' is no longer to be exorcised from the universe.

 

I guess so - I'm in my late twenties. If you post a picture of dementia surprise, I'm sure we can figure out what it is. Also, I was talking about supernatural monsters, obviously. There's nothing supernatural or inexplicable about mass murderers.

 

Only have four baby leaves, but thanks for the advice.

Back to demonic possession. I was looking for a link to a documentary we watched recently exposing evangelist faithhealers - they trained and had a very nice though rather embarrassed by what he was doing young man introduced to the so called healers - I mention this because they also claim to drive out daemons as well as cancer - seemed to be as long as people believed it had worked, it would seem, to an extent, to work - kinda like self hypnosis I guess. Must be a degree of euphoria, believing that say your cancer is gone. Money seems to .... influence what people do, even when it supposedly spiritual.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ-7beRITYM

 

In the movie "Dracula 2000" with Gerard Butler, they state the reason Dracula has a hatred for all things Christian and an aversion to silver, is because Dracula is actually Judas Iscariot.
He felt such guilt for betraying Christ, he tried to hang himself but was cursed instead to be a vampire.

Personally, I liked this explanation because it seems to give the myth of the vampire a little credence, and history. Which we know it doesn't have.

As far as demon possession, I have no real opinion about it other than I think it's hooey.

 

I like the way literature and cinema can demystify by bringing the arcane into common gaze and then demonstrating freedom to speculate on its machinery. For example Colin Wilson, in 'The space Vampires' and Anne Rice in her works.

 

Islamic vampires would not fear the cross nor the steak - you would have to have at them with a pork chop.

 

Oh chinese crested! Help ... you've set me off and if I'm not careful I might end up with a set of contributons to Plan's political INcorrectness thread.

The notion of making oneself un halal by rubbing pork sausages on one's neck, or by wearing a bacon collar has come to my notice.

But for now ... it is not surprising that Tilted Forum Project has already been researching this question:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-paranoia/151313-vampires-scared-islamic-imagery.html

 

Explains lady GaGas meat dress - bet there was all sorts hung around her.
Zen, if the pope wishes, he can come and chow down on your beaver on a friday and accuse it of being 'fishy'.

 

Chow down ... Friday? ... that'd leave me with a weak end. Dam!

Pope? Ewww. If I've got to be posessed, I'd rather it be by a demon because at least it wouldn't pretend to do it 'in the name of Catholic Good'. Hmmm. No, dangit. The demon, too, IMO, would be culturally limited:

The behaviours of posession are generally ones of anger and dissent expressed in the 'unacceptable terms' of the orthodoxy whose job it is to exorcise the 'victim'; usually adoptions of that given creed's 'unacceptable position'. The victim has flipped into spontaneous spiritual saggy-panting on which gets lumped the rest of the contents of the orthodoxy's 'closet-of-wrongness'. The exorcists are a cross between emergency services and 'cleaners'.

The same experiences are shared, which is different from saying 'same behaviours would be demonstrated'. A culture's sacred texts describe its 'dark side' specifications. The less Good/Evil polaritied ones give specifications for what, in that culture, will be deemed weird or off-kilter. Those are are the places the 'possessed' go. If you want to do 'being possessed' properly, you need to become educated in that culture's language in order to do it in ways which that culture will recognize.

It's interesting that the Pope's position as representative of God on Earth (channeling) is one where supposedly he retaines his free will (is NOT posessed) - an emphasised aspect of the Christian New Testament. The possessed person is deemed to have lost theirs.
In secular contexts, "He didn't know what he was doing", "It just came over me", and "The next thing I knew" are familiar phrases associated with those who go postal, or who 'lose it'.

 

Can you trust a man who thinks a beaver is a fish, and so he can eat beaver on a friday without fear of doing wrong? They also say locusts have only four legs - so numeracy skills are weak - must be how come they lost count of the number of their 'child victims'.

 

Whoops

Now I understand.
I googled.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100204060818AA6Uzef
And locusts.

It's a similar stoopid-but-frighteningly-dangerous thinking-style which enabled proof of 'consorting with the Devil'.
The Anglican church I sing at has a female Priest. At a choir meeting, I got a reaction of mixed agreement and horror when I declared that I have excommunicated the Pope for his positing on female clergy and that their existence be likened unto pederasty. More potential victims to have lost count of. Makes my blood boil.

Crazy thinking with (I call it) Evil results

Chinese Crested ... just check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamay

"Reasoning".

Those Dukes of Burgundy, and the Pope, should have been slapped round the head with a beaver.