Etiquette and common courtesy

I have found myself saying 'yes ma'am' and 'yes sir' at work quite a bit. it's a little more melodic than just, 'yes'

 

Plan 9 - an example of cowardice and ungentlemanly behaviour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNjaVu3n47k
And one of the heroism of those who try to pick up the pieces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeIX0VnUMKo
I think the latter are true gentle men, were true gentlemen - all hands lost. Not to imply that good manners lead to death.

Apologies to Davynn for drifting off course slightly.

 

Why do you tag me in posts? Why do you post in my blog?

I mean, I never understand what you're trying to say when you post.

I guess it must be my good manners that keep me from telling you to shut up.

...

uncle phil,

Please enjoy the title of the graphic.

 

Aye. Truely strait there.

Hi, chinese crested

To check that I understand your points clearly:

You'd distance from the noisy eater, without making comment on background, indeed, would take pains to make excuse rather than refer to his behaviour directly.

You mention how proprietors of venues are aware of potential for disruption and take measures to minimise it, and that parents need to do their bit to control disturbance.

You add your own general perspective to the subject by mentioning that examples can be found where disregard for conventions of manners and etiquette may have dire consequences. You cite the sinking of the Concordia as an instance of violation of 'captain should be last to leave a sinking ship', whereby, in his absence, more died than might have otherwise. You reckon that the punishment for letting people die, should be severe, and you provide links to the event and its converse.

 

For those that have issues with spoons and lip smacking... do yourself a favour and avoid coming to Asia. Here it is perfectly acceptable to make a lot of noise while you chew. It is also the norm for people to eat with fork and spoon.

It's not bad, it's just different.

 

Hi Zen. That's about it. I do think that parents have some responsibility for teaching their children how to behave in social situations, if they want them to come to the pub or whatever with them, then parent and child should have consideration for others there. Isn't that what it is all about, having consideration for others. Is there a decline in manners and consideration - compare the Concordia to the Titanic. It seems what is expected has altered - and not for the better. Given that the captain of the Concordia is responsible for all on his ship - (not just a specific young dancer) - like the state is to its citizens - it is deadly serious. Neglect that is criminal. Its certainly not what we consider to be a gentlemanly way to behave, nor that befitting rank.
Eating porridge with Africans - of course I used my fingers. One needs to have a certain amount of flexibility in attitude as to what constitutes good or bad manners. I suspect in many parts of the world people would be taken aback if a dark haired man burst through their door at new years eve expecting a glass of grogg - yet in Scotland traditionally such behaviour has long been welcomed as it brings good fortune - first footing isn't it? Myself, I don't want to sit in a restaurant watching drunks at a nearby table shove bread sticks up their noses or whatever - but on the rare occasions I do go out to eat, I go to places where that sort of behaviour would not be acceptable - heck - to be honest, the pub I usually go to for a special meal is the one where they were kind and considerate enough to sit me at a table where having my elderly end days dog sit on the chair next to me would bother no-one (around the corner and sitting on a blanket of course). Meant a lot to me, that my last birthday with her in my life we sat in a restaurant and shared dinner together. I think not a lot of places would do that - its because of their kindness and consideration that I give them my custom.

 

I'm not at all certain that you can conflate good manners with ethics or bravery. Should we believe that the noisy eater would be less likely to help women and children get off a sinking boat? I'm not at all comfortable with that kind of thinking. Plus, I think it is prob. bad manners, or at least in extremely poor taste, to wish horrible acts to be visited upon anyone, regardless of what they've done. Bad form.

 

More likely than not, the captain in question had impeccable table manners.

 

Do you know one of the many reasons that the English class system has been breaking down over the last 50 or so years is that what you're suggesting has been pretty much completely disproven? Those without manners have shown incredibly bravery in the face of almost-certain death.

So, yeah. Nice 19th Century stereotype there. How long until we break out the referrences to WOG's and empire?

 

I, too, would steer clear from conflating good manners with ethics or bravery. Manners and ethics are different in that a code of ethics is a set of principles on which a community is organised; manners are codes of conduct, the individual behaviours of which may or may not be directly linked with ethics ('ask for salt rather than push across' vs 'eat only with third fork from the left'). However, the fact that there be some code of conduct, including protocol to negotiate appropriate and inappropriate ways of responding to and discussing perceived violation, indicates not only that there is some ethical system in operation, but that this code can, when examined or challenged, generate crucial information about the health of that system. cf this entire thread and its reverberations.

Examples of well mannered cowards and ill-mannered heroes prove that people can be contrary, and that there are no strong causal constraints, but does not disprove connection between manners and ethics. Bravery is not necessarily connected with either. The brave person puts h/erself at risk for something that is important to h/er, which may, but does not have to include ethical considerations. A decent person's actions may be brave, so may a criminal's. By way of contrast, I'll ponder that cowardice seems definitively unethical, in that it is about choosing prudence when the ethical course would require risk.

I am proposing that manners and ethics are different, and that they are not causally but functionally connected, i.e. Manners are the day to day opportunities for a culture to express, practice and test the quality, and even affirm the existence of its ethical thinking. Ethics are the organized principles of "what to do when because why" which evolve, or not, according to how flexibly they identify and adjust for discrepancies between a principle's intention and its result in behaviour.

It is important, when exploring such connections, to distinguish them from the histories of individual cultures that gave them birth. eg A community based on principles of privilege and power, puts thoughts of 'other' (person or group etc) beneath thoughts of 'self'. Manners become devoid of sincerity or respect, because ethical principles, demoted to serve as tools for manipulation, empty, no longer support them.

But other communities differ, from nation down to the level of family and individuals they may be following or fighting, or they may be choosing; and, meeting them, to engage a sense of cultural and psychological relativity: to lighten the tread of our own assumptions, or risk losing the 'baby' of richer connectedness when we swill away the 'bathwater' of one culture's limited or, at worst, mis-management of it.

 

^^^ Whoops, pardon. Two typos in last para:
But other communities differ, from nation down to the level of family and individuals, they may be following or fighting, or they may be choosing; and, meeting them, we need to engage a sense of cultural and psychological relativity: to lighten the tread of our own assumptions, or risk losing the 'baby' of richer connectedness when we swill away the 'bathwater' of one culture's limited or, at worst, mis-management of it.

 

I'm completely unclear on what the main thrust of the debate is here.

Is it about whether or not it is good etiquette to move away from someone who's "etiquette" is disturbing you?

It was discussing this sort of stuff that lost me my fucking Empire. It distracted me for a moment and there it was, gone