1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. We've had very few donations over the year. I'm going to be short soon as some personal things are keeping me from putting up the money. If you have something small to contribute it's greatly appreciated. Please put your screen name as well so that I can give you credit. Click here: Donations
    Dismiss Notice

Politics Ferguson

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by redravin, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North


    Unfortunately we don't have accurate numbers for the number of people killed by police officers, legitimate or not, because the departments aren't reporting them consistently.
    Some sources have the numbers as high as 3 per day but YMMV.
    Some don't count situations where the officer was working as a security guard because it was a second job and he wasn't on active duty but that kind of splitting hairs.
    This is an interesting article on the subject.

    Another (Much Higher) Count Of Homicides By Police | FiveThirtyEight
     
  2. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    So things keep getting interesting.
    One of the grand jurors is suing to be allowed to speak.
    I suspect they are one of the ones who didn't go along with the majority (maybe one of the three black members).
    It should be interesting to see how this turns out.

    Darren Wilson Grand Juror Sues, Accusing Ferguson Prosecutor Of Mischaracterizing Case

     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
    • Like Like x 3
  3. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Well, the Justice Department decided not to press charges against Darren Wilson which was not really a surprise to anyone.
    But they did rip the Ferguson police department a new one.
    Anyone who read about how their police department operated saw this coming but I have to admit I was a bit shocked by some of it.

    15 most outrageous examples of police misconduct in the DOJ report on Ferguson


    Eric Holder: Justice Department's Investigation Of Ferguson Police Department Is "Searing" - BuzzFeed News

     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
    • Like Like x 2
  4. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    The report was shocking in showing how the Ferguson Police Department routinely violated the Constitutional rights of black residents of the city. And in some cases, with support of other cities in the region.

    And certainly, Ferguson is not alone and hopefully this exposure will lead to more dialogue and some constructive measures across the country.

    Obama's Task Force on 21st Century Policing is a start. The Task Force released an interim report last week. There is nothing new in the recommendations; the question is where we go from here as a country in seriously addressing the issue of racism in law enforcement.
     
  5. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    The whole idea of the police force as a revenue stream has to end.
    It's been common joke for decades but the Ferguson report proved that the city was using the police for that purpose.
    Now I'm sure in other places they don't rely on POC to make their money, tourists, out of staters, etc. work just fine but the normal course is that group that is going to get squeezed is the one without a voice.
    I know that small towns have run out of ways to support themselves these days but this has to stop.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Education and jobs - the underlying issues are not complicated. When poorly educated young men who have no opportunity for legitimate employment interact with poorly trained, aggressive police officers the result will end badly. In addition, educated people are more likely to vote and are less likely to be taken advantage of by corrupt judicial systems. The schools in some communities are a tragedy and nothing is being done, and poor responsible parents have no choice or alternative for their children. The other tragedy are the zip codes with 24% - 60% young adult unemployment - raising the minimum wage won't help them get the entry level jobs and job training they need - again nothing is being done.
     
  7. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Ace...did you read the DoJ report on Ferguson? The institutional practicies that targeted blacks by both the police and the municipal courts.

    They are not issues of education and jobs, but are issues of civil rights and police department policies and practices and, they are not unique to Ferguson.

    You are blaming the victim for these policies and practices. Fix the system! You want to talk job training, lets focus on police training.

    Education and jobs are separate issues with separate solutions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
  9. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Yes.

    The root cause of the issues in Ferguson are related to education and jobs. Policing problems and the institutional issues are a symptom of the root causes.

    In the DC area the black male H.S. graduation rate is below 50% in MO the rate is less than 70% - using white males as a baseline comparison nationally the rate is typically about 80% compared to 59% for black males. For black males zip codes are a major factor, in some zip codes the numbers are materially better and in others materially worse, which can cause misinterpretation of the extent of the problem in some states. Next look at the suspension rates. Black males nationally average 15%, white males 5%. The root problem is obvious to me. I do not believe modern police forces (which includes black officers and in some cities blacks in leadership roles including police chief) are inherently racist.

    Black Lives Matter: the Schott Foundation Report on Public Education and Black Males, 2015

    No, I am not. I blame adults not the children who are not being prepared to be productive citizens.

    Yes.

    I agree that police need improved training when dealing with young black males. this addresses 1/2 of the problem. The report addresses 1/2 of the problem, and does not address the root causes of the problem. I can agree that the focus of the report was on policing and not the root causes of the problem - that is why I made my post, so that we do not think the recommendation in the report will get the job done.

    I am not sure what you mean, but I think I disagree. In my mind they are one, or put another way - preparing young men to become productive members of society - hence education and jobs.
     
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Wait—so a profit-driven court system and widespread racial bias in the city police department is due to substandard education and jobs?
     
  11. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    All the police training in the world isn't going to get rid of the inherent racism and willful ignorance of the south. Police training might give them better tools to help deal with tense situations and to dial back those situations. But they will still be racist.

    Anyone want to touch the fact that two police officers were just shot at a protest in Ferguson?
     
  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Maybe at this point hoping that the Ferguson police force will "deal with the tense situation" and "dial back the situation" as you suggested.
     
  13. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North


    Don't have enough information to do any in depth commentary except that it looks like one person and the police are closing in on them.
    When we know more about the person doing the shooting it might be worth talking about.
     
  14. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Well I can tell you it's going to raise tensions amongst all officers. Even the most well-intentioned ones. Everyone is going to have their head on a swivel, and everyone is going to be scrutinized when in contact. I'm just telling it like it is. I'm sure we'll be hearing about it tomorrow in our team meeting. As will the executive security unit that guards the state capitol. And there are going to be a lot of officers across the nation on edge.
     
  15. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Yes.
    --- merged: Mar 12, 2015 at 4:48 PM ---
    Black male graduation rates in New York are between 50% - 59%. More than 50% of black males without a H.S. diploma are unemployed in the US (2013 data, I doubt there has been significant change.)

    Male African-American Unemployment Is Over 50 Percent Among Dropouts


    And in New York ( note - includes all not just black male drop-outs from 2012):

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/nyregion/blacks-miss-out-as-jobs-rebound-in-new-york-city.html?_r=0

    This is not a South problem, it is a national problem with concentrations in certain areas.
    --- merged: Mar 12, 2015 at 4:54 PM ---
    Everyone needs to understand the difference between murderous thugs and peaceful protestors. Police officers need to get the criminals. It is the job, it is the profession. If there are police officers who don't want to or can not do the job, they should resign.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2015
  16. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Don't any of the judges, lawyers, or police officers come from out of state? Or at least were educated elsewhere? Also, is it just low pay they suffer, or is there other issues about their jobs that make them less appealing than in other areas? I understand that teachers get really low pay in the U.S. in general, but they are really lowly paid in some areas. Is that the case with these professions too?
     
  17. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I believe you misinterpret my points. The problem is with black males dis-proportionately not being properly educated in this country, dis-proportionately being unemployed - not being prepared to be productive citizens. Fix this problem and we fix the policing problem - we fix the judicial problem.

    How was the US able to perpetuate a system of racism for over 100 years after slaves were freed? Brown V. board of Education has your answer - separate was not equal. Inferior education was a key to perpetuating institutional racism. Inferior economic opportunity was a key to perpetuating institutional racism. Ignorant people with no economic clout can be controlled. When we look at the history of immigration, with other ethic groups and their struggles in the US - education and economic empowerment lead to institutional social acceptance.
     
  18. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    So it's okay if the justice system is profit-oriented and that law enforcement is racist? Or are you saying these things are caused by uneducated and unemployed black men? Are you saying that uneducated and unemployed black men force the justice system to be unfair and racist?

    I'm probably still misinterpreting your points.

    This isn't wrong, but I think you're looking at the issue myopically. You seem to want to give the justice system a free pass.

    I'm probably wrong. (I hope I am.)
     
  19. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    What is your basis for this question? If your read my posts on this subject, I clearly stated that 1/2 of the problem is related to policing and institutional failings. I also stated that addressing policing and institutional failings does not address the root causes of the problem. Address the symptoms. Address the root causes. Do both. However, in my view, addressing the root causes will solve the problem.

    Yes. I also made it clear to DC, that I do not blame young black males for their condition. Children raised under the conditions in question have no political or economic power - violence/crime is often the only means for expression or outlet. We can fix this problem. We have people in power who can make a difference. I think their problem is that they focus on the wrong issues or simply have other priorities. For example - the Democratic Party is more vested in unions and protecting under-performing schools and teachers than they are the children being violated by the education system. Arnie Duncan, the Secretary of Education came from on of the worst school systems in the country - he failed to make any improvements in Chicago and he is failing to make any improvements nationally - why does he still have his job? There are school systems that have had success. Why,in DC do they fight giving poor families the right of school choice??? What high level political figure sends their children to DC public schools? It is not just a Democratic Party issue, Chris Christie, Gov of NJ send his children to a private school - people in power need to fix the school system and give the poor the same right of choice as the rich have. If a public school gets $10K+ per student, let the student apply that money to a private school if they believe they can get a better education! I am starting to ramble, but I am sure reasonable people get the point.

    Force is not a word I would use. Some have the perception that young black males have a natural violent nature and are inherently a threat, no different than an animal being a threat. However this thought is planted in the minds of authorities, the responses are predictable. Again, there are two issues - one is the "thought" the other is making sure our system produces black males who are productive members of society. Perhaps the numbers are getting lost, we can not have 50% or more people in a local area unemployed with no productive outlet, not contributing to society. It is in particular important for young males to have positive outlets - 50% unemployment for 80 year-olds is not going to be a social problem the way it would be for 50% unemployment for 20 year-old males. And, please let's not pretend there is not a difference.

    It was the justice system in Brown V board of Education that started the reversal of about 100 years of Jim Crow. You will never read from me that the justice system is not important. It is you who seems to have a myopic view of what I write.

    It would be easier if you read with an open mind. Your posts in response to what I write suggests to me that you respond with a preconceive notion and therefore you have me responding to arguments that you make up rather what is posted. If I write - I like blue. You will want to know what I have against red. I like red too. Then it is what is wrong with green...I think you do this on purpose - and I wonder why, I have not figured it out.
     
  20. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Ace, I don't want to assume anything about what you say. That's all.