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FREEDOM of choice....demonstrate socialism's virtue

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by bandit75238, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. If socialism is the goal of the majority, I am not claiming it is, why is the following scenario or something similar not an option? Or is this being done? The following may sound sarcastic, it is meant to, not to poke fun at liberals or conservatives. It is aimed at the media mostly. They seem to have all the answers, but only to the questions they choose to ask themselves. And then only if the answer supports the party they agree with. Not all do this but the vast majority do.
    "It is time to show that socialism works. We have the freedom to create a voluntary only socialist society right now. If all of those that support this, the media, Hollywood, and the professors it will gain traction quickly. And then there will be a working model you that can be pointed at. At which point those who elected to not participate will join. Maybe some still choose to be on their own. To make sure they don't starve, food and shelter will be available at anytime to them. If this system works very few would choose not join, resulting in converting everyone."

    Would this work?
    Same situation, accept with other forms of government. What would occur in your opinion, with examples if you know of them. Not to the environment or other countries etc. In its most simplistic form. Here is what I feel is an important weight in the equation---the long term effect and short term effect.
    People will judge success or failure in different ways. Is fairness important? What is your idea of "fair". That differs from person to person and culture to culture.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    It seems to me that different methods produce different results by design. And the vast majority not only is unaware of this they are also mislead.
    For example Social Security. Every American has money taken from them before they even touch it and it is to be used for Social Security. So is it successful. How large is the fund? It must be huge with the interest it has earned. Yet it is empty. The most common answers I can find for this are "We need more taxation." This is to anger one party and appeal to the other. The other answer is no free rides, or another interpretation would be we give to much already. This has the same effect as the previous argument only the parties are reversed.
    Both sides are not as far apart as it would seem on the actual end result they wish provide. And the answer is not taxation. It is not more power to government.
    --------------
    Even if ALL U.S. citizens were taxed 100% of their income for an entire year… that’s every penny, earned by every citizen in the entire country… it would still not be enough to pay off our debts. Not even close. We’d still be trillions of dollars short. ~University ofNew Mexico Bureau of Business and Economic Research
    ------------------

    Would enforcing immigration laws save money? Does the majority of the population support enforcement? Yes and yes. Would enforcing it cost votes yes. And as a result it is not enforced and examples are made of states that try to do what the federal level is supposed to do. See Arizona being sued by current admin. So let’s make new laws. See gang of eight.


    If current immigration laws were ALLOWED to be enforced we would not need reform. How much damage is done to the environment by the additional taxation we are told is required, some of which goes to protecting the environment.

    Government officials do not want to correct anything or help anyone UNLESS it will expand their control and your dependence upon them. Solving the problem would mean less government, it is in their best interest to offer the most popular policy hint at a solution that may seem reasonable and then once implemented at best will selectively enforce it if at all.
    They have every incentive to make it as bad as they can possibly make it. Thus creating the illusion that we need even more corrective action to be taken by them. Issues that do not exist are created to expand power.

    How many solutions are offered that provide either less government involvement or stated in simple plain English and easily understood solutions are proposed? And how many times are failures corrected or shutdown? When has the government reduced the amount of control and involvement they have in your life? In anything? Why are contents in a bill hidden until it is passed? Nobody thinks that is a problem?


    It is important to understand that party is not what we should be voting on. Neither party has your best interest at heart. Some may seem to propose what sounds like the "right thing to do", or the fairest, or the most logical solutions on issues. Even if they were being truthful and truly believe in what they offer, most of them are very short term. The more popular a suggestion is the more you need to question the long term effects, and more importantly will what is promised even be followed through on or enforced in the way it presented. More likely it is a method of power expansion and the only interpretation of that power is at the discretion of those that are in power. Which is never good, the idea can be a sound idea, that is not the issue when those that enforce it have the exclusive power to choose when and upon whom it shall be enforced.
    We are one people. If we were all in 100% agreement on every issue, the end result would still upset everyone the way things are done currently.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
  2. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Is this where we're all supposed to join hands and sing the new Libertarian anthem?

     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    This is why the middle way is preferable.

    Pure socialism has been problematic. Pure libertarianism would be a nightmare.

    Problems solved using extreme measures from extreme positions may be efficient, but it's unsustainable. Problems solved in balanced ways—public and private influences working together—trend towards the sustainable.

    It's easy to look to idealistic states and think how great it would be, how free or prosperous we would be.

    The reality, however, is that on the national level, without compromise, nothing is practical.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. They have an anthem?

    It seems like, to me, even on issues that everybody agrees on for the most part, nothing changes. Nothing meaningful changes.
    For example "Corporate Welfare Grows to $154 Billion even in Midst of Major Government Cuts" I can't post links yet, but that is from reclaimdemocracy org.
    One party wants to provide more assistance to those who in need of help. And a system that would change the current formula used to determine value assigned to various components involved in production. Is that correct?
    The other wants the government to not over regulate. I generalize and oversimplify on these.
    How is Corporate welfare itself not regulation?
    How would a reducing the taxation help generate the funds needed for various programs.
     
  5. Plan9 FORMAT C:

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    • Like Like x 2
  6. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    To quote Ferris Bueller...
    For me, it's pragmatism...
    But since that's an "ism"...then how about Common Sense?

    However, they say that Common Sense ain't that common...

    Think for yourself, see if it works.
    Repeat.
     
  7. Alistair Eurotrash

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Not empty. Just full of government IOUs.

    The question is, how will the government pay?

    Oh.

    I see your point.
     
  8. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    You're just too damned reasonable Baraka. It's a well known fact that the sensible (however meek) will not inherit the earth.
    --- merged: Jul 11, 2013 at 6:11 PM ---
    You'd be surprised by the number of Americans who don't know that the fund was raided and assume that the shortfall is due to the government paying more to seniors than has been paid in.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2013
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm prepared for both a Mad Max libertarian dystopia and a Star Trek socialist utopia.

    I'm not only reasonable; I'm also practical, i.e., adaptable.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Is the bolded section a quote from someone? I would appreciate knowing the source before I respond.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Taxation is not evil. It's is a staple of every civilized government and is not, in and of itself, a source of government power. What the government does with tax revenue is the sticky wicket but unless you're an anarchist, you can't reasonably support a government that doesn't take in tax revenue.
    --------------
    A poor argument for the elimination of taxes.
    ------------------
    Your passive aggressive approach to "introducing" an open conversation about these issues is annoying me.

    Undocumented workers and the EPA are not the biggest problems facing the US. In fact, concerns about both seem to be isolated to xenophobes and Obama haters.

    Sounds like you've been sucked into someone's conspiracy manifesto.

    ^^This says:
    "Though it may appear I'm in support of the Tea Party influence on the US Congress, I have no real affiliation with any party. I am a free agent simply asking questions without any preconceived opinions or agenda."

    I say bullshit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
  11. Plan9 FORMAT C:

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    Pushovers end up riding pillion when the mohawks start appearing on the streets.

    As many governments throughout history have told their subjects: being a bitch is always your best option.

    Dieting is painful and requires a lot of self-discipline. One might suggest that the current monster won't go on a diet without help.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam

    I have been to 'socialist countries' and Mexico is pretty Libertarian. Both have good points and bad points.

    The problem is that most people can't move. They have jobs or family near by. Retirees can move in some situations, so you see certain areas changing because of them. The same thing happens in college towns too.

    As for setting up a new society in certain states...well it costs more in the short term to setup a clean socialist society, but long term the costs are lower. The long term costs are higher and there are plenty of long term problems that are created by the Libertarian policies, but it doesn't cost much in the short term.

    The politicians didn't spend all that money in one year. And just because the right doesn't want to have estate taxes to recoup the lower taxes while they are living, doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a financial plan that trends towards paying off the debt, not giving out tax refunds when the government collects a surplus (like they just did last month or quarter, I can't remember).
     
  13. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Who are we kidding? It's America we're talking about, aren't we? It will be less Mad Max and more Handmaid's Tale.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Plan9 FORMAT C:

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    I can't wait to party with you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. MSD

    MSD Very Tilted

    Location:
    CT
    Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    American exceptionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Nirvana fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Cultural relativism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Post hoc ergo propter hoc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Argument to moderation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Begging the question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Circular reasoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    How do you feel about Ron Paul?
     
    • Like Like x 5
  16. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Death by Wiki
     
  17. Plan9 FORMAT C:

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    More like:

    Death by high school debate team, circa 1989.
     
  18. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    Back then we didn't have wiki, and had to walk uphill both ways to school.
     
  19. mod edit: I edited this post to allow embedded videos that a new member wouldn't otherwise be able to embed -MSD

    I am not saying taxation is bad. I think it is a duty to pay taxes.
    What was so important that it required the Social Security fund to be raided and must still be important, since only it has not been payed back?
    I don't know what should be done. I am bias. I am not as effective as I would like to be in removing this from myself, views and the conclusions I draw.
    It bothers me that one of the reasons more funds are needed for a program most feel is important, is it has used the funds it already had for that very purpose and no other, for who knows what.
    If it had never been raided is it possible that SS would not be a disaster that requires more money and intervention to correct?
    Is this an isolated incident? Is this how other programs are operated?
    What if it is pointed out by those that are responsible in some way of administering the program that there may be waste or mismanagement?
    Is it corrected? Those responsible charged? Or are such actions discouraged?
    Recent news on Snowden is focused on what a traitor he is and how we must catch him so we can punish him, instead of the breach of laws and violation of the constitution by the government.

    I am not even certain that what Snowden pointed out was truly unknown. It does give the general public knowledge of abuses of power, thus must be silenced and an example must be made for all current and future federal employees.

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0hO5fTGwPY



    Tailblazer cost +1 billion. Thinthread cost 3 million They throw members of the media in jail.

    Government has taken over GM, banks; it looks like healthcare if nothing changes. They put all kinds of demands on business and citizens to comply with Obamacare at enormous costs or face fines or other penalties by a certain date when Obamacare takes effect. Then changes at will when this date will be at no cost to themselves. Would they have been as understanding of the people that are not ready in time?
    Eight people have been charged under the Espionage Act since 2004, now it looks like it will be nine, prior to 2004 only three had been charged in the history of the United States. These are whistleblowers, which suddenly are considered traitors. Why? The government says they are.
    --- merged: Jul 12, 2013 at 11:51 AM ---
    How do you feel about Ron Paul?

    Ron Paul’s Farewell Address to Congress at his website should be watched by every American, but I would not advocate requiring it by force.
    --- merged: Jul 12, 2013 at 12:11 PM ---
    I attempting to expand my knowledge and learn from everyone I possibly can.
    Thank you all for sharing with me.
    --- merged: Jul 12, 2013 at 12:11 PM ---
    I am attempting to expand my knowledge and learn from everyone I possibly can.
    Thank you all for sharing with me.[/quote]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2013
  20. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Show us how it's done, new millenium style.