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Politics Gaza

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by Baraka_Guru, Nov 16, 2012.

  1. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Unless you've been living under a rock, you must have heard about this by now.

    Both sides are escalating, and it looks like Israel is gearing up for the largest offensive in Gaza in a few years.

    What do you make of this?
    • It's the first time Tel Aviv has come under rocket fire since the Gulf War in 1991, and in Jerusalem since 1970.
    • Israel is calling up tens of thousands of reservists.
    • All three roads into Gaza are blocked.
    • Egypt's new leader is going to be tested.
    This looks like it's going to get nasty.

    How has your national leader responded to this? What would you have liked to see?

    In Canada, PM Harper has essentially backed Israel and has condemned the attacks from Hamas. He has said nothing about Israel's response beyond the typical "right to defence" argument. I would have liked him to be more neutral and diplomatic about it.

    It looks like history is repeating itself. Will the region always be like this?

    BBC News - Gaza conflict: Israel vows to intensify offensive
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  2. Flip Astro

    Flip Astro New Member

    I think that Israel has every right to defend itself. Israel bent over backwards to give the Palastinian what they wanted, with the exception of the dissolution of Israel itself. Nothing short of extinction of one side will end this.

    And this is comming from a guy that used to be a Palastinian supporter.
  3. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Foggy Bottom
    I've been a lifelong support of Israel, just not the extremist, provocative policies of Likud generally and Netanyahu in particular.

    The Palestinians also need leadership that will recognize the necessity of peaceful co-existence. That leadership wont come from Hamas and the Palestinian people will continue to suffer as a result.

    There is no solution until moderation prevails on both sides, but I suspect that is a pipedream.

    The Twitter war says it all.


    Israel Declares War On Hamas Via Twitter, Hamas Responds Via Twitter, Welcome to 2012 | Popular Science
  4. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Frankfurt, Germany
    Absolutely. Israel has agreed to vacate the occupied Palestinian territories, not build their own settlements in those occupied territories (illegal as per international law, by the way), open the borders for full commercial trade, and has not done everything to deny the Palestinians a UN membership. :rolleyes:

    You must have a different definition of "bending over backwards".
    • Like Like x 3
  5. samcol

    samcol Getting Tilted

    something about this is just bizarre. i can't imagine living in a world like this. it's like they are sitting at a cafe outside casually while rockets are being fired. the music is what really sets it off.

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8kAyqbKwd1o

    i dont really have a side i take because there's been plenty of atrocities to go around.
  6. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    My viewpoint on this is this....It's Cowboys & Indians.

    And pick your side...pretty much both have reasons, both have done bad.
    The key is who wins what when...and then they get tired, there's a lull...then someone pisses on someone else leg...then it happens again.

    I ignore it.
    Do I care that people are dying? Yes, but sometimes you've just gotta let kids duke it out, there will be blood and bruises.
    And sometimes, you have to break it up...
    It's situational.

    Friggin' Hatfields & McCoys...

    Until they figure it out on their own...then it's going to happen again & again.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    there is no equivalence between the idf and hamas. there is no symmetry. it is not cowboys and indians. it is the regional military superpower engaging in a massacre. the idf murdered jibari, who was the main official in hamas responsible for holding together the cease fire. then they're all shocked that the cease fire falls apart. please.

    this is yet another brutal extension of israeli colonialism.
    nothing good will come of it.
    • Like Like x 3
  8. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    No, rogue49. Hamas does not have nearly the capabilities of the IDF, and thus you cannot compare the two. You can start doing so when Hamas magically becomes a nuclear power.
  9. Flip Astro

    Flip Astro New Member

    Oh yes. Lets just ignore what I said about Israel giving the Palastinians everything they wanted, including sending the Israeli Military to forcibly remove Israeli settlers ( I see how that was quickly forgotten by everyone) from the disputed lands. Then, when there was nearly a civil war within Israel, the Palastinians used the land that the Israelis used force on their own people to give to the Palastinians, to fire deeper into Israel.

    Now, Iran is arming Hamas with rockets. Iran. A nation with no Pony in this race. Iran didn't lose any territory nor are Israelis setting anywhere in Iran. They are the trying to make good on their vow to wipe Israel off the map. I don't blame Israel from behaving the way it is. Iran won't stop until Israel is gone. And Hamas is their puppet. I pity the poor people who just want to be left alone, but they elected Hamas, so there it is.

    and while I will go on record as saying that the creation of Israel was a bad idea, and I don't blame anyone for being pissed, its time to accept that Israel ain't going away accept by force. And the other fact is that Israel showed the world that they were willing to work towards peace and the Hamas/Iran side showed they don't want it. So given these facts, what do you think Israel is gonna do?

    Also filter in this. I am an American atheist that thinks that both sides of this conflict are spawned by silly ideas of my mythology has a bigger cock than your mythology. I resent that Israel has so much influnce in the United States, and I wish my tax dollars didn't go to support them. I think they baked their cake, and should be left to eat it alone. I also think they showed that they were more willing to commit to peace. And I also think that Iran is the crazier, more dangerous piece in this shit pie. So all things considered, with no emotion invested into this, I will root for Israel, while voting in politicians that will try to remove the States from this porcupine of stickly insanity.

    Zealotry from both sides are the problems here. How ever one side is calling for genocide while the other is calling for solitude.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Zealotry from both sides is a problem. As is the western prejudice for western ideas of 'solitude.' Which essentially means space, time, predominance and 'reasonable violence' for westerners (and those like them) and dirt, poverty, suffering and 'terrorism' for everyone else. I really can't abide it.

    I should stay away from this thread.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    you have no idea of the reality of the situation, flip.

    for example:

    Israel's control of the airspace and the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip | B'Tselem
  12. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Foggy Bottom
    Of course there is no comparison between the fire power of IDF and Hamas.

    But if Hamas expects to be treated as a legitimate government, it must recognize Israel's right to exist as has the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Jordan...with concessions by Israel to follow, with everything on the table but a "right of return."

    I should stay away from this thread as well.
  13. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    there was every indication that, had israel allowed hamas to take power instead of laying seige to gaza, that they would have moderated. but they didn't. instead, its been 6 years of systematic brutalization of the population of the strip, punctuated by massacres that have followed each of the last 2 us presidential elections.

    indications are that this newest massacre is largely about netanyahu's concerns over the january elections. what's a few palestinian civilian deaths when electoral support needs to be built for someone largely regarded as an idiot?

    fanon was right: colonialism makes all sides pathological. the daily brutality affects all sides.

    of course the americans support this massacre. we are all complicit because of that.

    o and just to say this, because sooner or later it'll come up: i have no problem with the fact of israel. but i think israel should conform to the norms that shape the behaviors of other nation-states. it is not an exception. there is no justification---at all---for its actions in gaza. there is no justification for the settlements in the west bank and the colonial apparatus that has arisen because of them. none. there is no justification for the israeli apartheid state. none. and there will be no peace in the region until these situations are addressed. of course the united states does nothing to advance that. nothing at all.
    --- merged: Nov 17, 2012 at 12:32 PM ---
    here's an interesting infographic:

    Gaza: A people under siege - Interactive - Al Jazeera English
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2012
    • Like Like x 1
  14. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Yes, Hamas has no nukes...but Israel is not using nukes on them...nor has threatened to. If anything, the nukes are protection against nation-states.
    So that point is moot.

    This is one group fighting another group...basically with guns & rockets. (and sticks and stones)
    The only thing that Israel I've seen using of superior firepower is tanks...and now drones.

    But then again, Hamas uses suicide bombers...which Israel doesn't. So that's guerilla warfare.

    Which is worse? Which is better? Which is more "honorable"? Again, that argument is debatable and likely unending and useless.

    What is comes down to is this.
    One group wants one part of land...and claims it.
    The other group wants one part of land...and claims it.
    Both say each others claims are null and void and incorrect and unhonorable (and nanny-nanny poo-poo)

    Israel uses lawyers and real-estate brokers to take their land.
    Hamas uses previous agreements and history books to represent their claim.

    Neither is completely right...nor completely in the right.
    Each hates each other for various deep-seeded and ambigous reasons (and the fact they have killed each other)

    So what it comes down to is this.
    Everybody stays where everybody is, nobody takes any more property...put down their guns. Forget (not forgive) all the deaths and dismemberment.
    Live their lives...and move on.

    But this is not going to happen, because you're always going to get ONE small subset, which decides to say BANG, or take more property.
    Then people get emotional...and the guns come out again.

    Again, it's Cowboys & Indians.

    And what will happen, is in the long-run...one of them will sooner or later gain advantage...and that one will push out the other.
    Question is...which one?

    And in the meantime, people will do horrid things to each other. Stupid shit will occur.

    Am I wrong??

    This is like you trying to figure out which side to take in a bad relationship of your married friends.
    Sometimes you're not going to be able to figure out who is wrong or right...or they're both wrong and right.
    And you getting involved will only hurt YOU.

    Stay out of it.
    We're NOT going to solve it...the only thing is keep it from going beyond the boundaries and bringing in others.
  15. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Foggy Bottom
    I'm not a defender of Netanyahu and I believe the US attempts at negotiating a settlement, with return to 67 borders, is the best chance for peace.

    But that requires Hamas to first work with Fatah on a unity agreement on one side and requires Likud to offer real concessions or be voted out. And neither Hamas nor Likud are prepared to go that route.

    There is plenty of blame on both sides when extremists set the agenda.
  16. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    since the sharon period, israel has worked to undermine--putting it politely---the capacity of the pa to do anything, this in order to short-circuit negociations over the west bank by claiming there's no party with which to negociate. israeli actions set up the conditions that enabled hamas to organize itself and then win elections in gaza. so the israelis layed siege. there's not a whole lot of "well both sides did x" in that.

    the israelis are using f16s to bomb gaza. there is a ground war being prepared. there is no argument that is in possession of the facts that can lead you to claims of symmetry at any level on this one.
  17. Flip Astro

    Flip Astro New Member

    Be realistic. If Israel just stopped setting in Palastinian lands ( Which I say they did back in 05 but it backfired) but for the sake of argument they stopped cold. Bam, no more settlements period, does anyone honestly think that Hamas would just say, " cool beans, now we can build a future."

    Be realisitc. Hamas doesn't want peace. They want Israel destroyed. Hell, its not even a secret. They say it practically every day. So what is there for Israel to gain by the peace process. No matter what they do, unless they set their phasers on disintergrate and use it on themselves, Hamas, and by extention Iran, will keep fighthing. The onus for peace is on Hamas.
  18. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    israel has never stopped the settlements. israel continues to build them. they encounter resistance from those snippy palestinians who mistakenly see in the spaces they have lived for generations something like home. so the idf comes and separates them. the idf finds itself controlling the racist settlers who want to massacre the palestinians on the one hand, and the palestinians who want the settlers gone on the other. from that absurd situation follows all the usual superficial justifications for ongoing israeli colonialism. the logic itself is the problem. but it's easy to repeat it.

    more circular bullshit obtains about hamas. had israel not laid siege to gaza and allowed hamas to govern, all analysts not aligned with the israeli right agree that the situation would have been different now. hamas would likely have moderated in order to govern. they would have been in a position to delete those sentences from its charter that the israeli right uses to justify the siege. the absurdity of this situation is self-evident. it's just a particularly brutal absurdity for the population of gaza.

    the idea that the problem with gaza lay with hamas is idiotic. it bypasses all of reality for the past 6 years, everything that israel has done in an effort to undermine support for hamas, to repeat what they did to the pa. the opposite has happened. but that seems to suit the israeli right just fine--it provides a convenient theater for a bit of massacre to help legitimate it in coming elections.

    there is no justification for what israel is doing.
    the regional military super-power is responsible for creating and maintaining the conditions of hostility that justify their ongoing colonial presence.
    works pretty well ideologicall insofar as folk who don't really know what they're talking about is concerned.
    but in reality, it's criminal. all of it.

    if you lived under conditions like those which obtain in the west bank and gaza, you would fight back. anyone would.
    but of course, if for political reasons you can't get your head around the reality of israeli colonial occupation, then the problem devolves onto
    those snippy palestinians and their attitude problem. and from there, its a short step to the racist politics of the settler parties.

    this reality business is most unpleasant. it's not at all like a western.
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Bodkin van Horn

    Bodkin van Horn One of the Four Horsewomyn of the Fempocalypse

    Complicated rationalizations for continued violence aside, I suspect there would be fewer problems between Israel and Palestine if the Israeli olive branch wasn't some form of "You do exactly what we want and in exchange we'll fuck you slightly less hard in your occupied assholes." Israel has a much larger balance of power in this situation. At some point, bullying is just bullying, regardless of how often the bullied party retaliates.
    • Like Like x 3
  20. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Foggy Bottom
    I dont disagree with most (not all) of the criticisms here of Israel or the suggestion that Israel needs to off concessions.

    But lets not left Hamas off the hook either. They are effectively governing Gaza in the manner of Iran and many former (pre-Arab Spring) authoritarian regimes in the region....restricting political opposition, restricting press and rights of assembly, repeatedly postponing free and fair elections, limiting access by NGOs....Their popularity in Gaza is on the decline and they are responding in the only manner they know how...provoke Israel and promote the grand Islamic vision for the region.
    --- merged: Nov 17, 2012 at 2:11 PM ---
    As an American Jew with relatives in Israel, a few of whom I communicate with regularly, I admit to an emotional bias and will gracefully bow out now.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2012