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Gunfight case studies vs. defensive training with guns

Discussion in 'Tilted Weaponry' started by ronnee, Jan 27, 2013.

  1. ronnee New Member

    Jim Cirillo has written a book about gunfighting. he was the premier member of the NYPD's famed "Stakout Unit", from the 68 riot days. They were only called upon when a given liquor store was being robbed 2x a day, usually by the same doper. This was the only way to justify tying up 2 cops at one location for such a long period of time. This was only happening in Harlem, so naturally, no white men being in Harlem, everyone that they shot or captured was black. Even tho only black clerks and storeowners were being victimized, the NAACP made them stop the Unit after a few months of operation. But they captured or killed 280 armed robberrs, having to fire upon only 40. Jim personally killed 13, and wounded another 1/2 dozen while firing with his partner. He personally witnessed his partners (mostly Bill Adler) kill anothe 1/2 dozen.

    Notice the ratio of how many gave up, even tho they were cornered and facing decades in Sing Sing, where they would probably be raped, maimed or killed. Then read the monthly column of the "armed citizen" in the NRA's AMERICAN RIFLEMAN magazine. it always has a dozen cases wherein just the SIGHT of a ready gun in the hands of a defender sufficed to cause the flight or surrender of the attacker, with no shots fired by the defender. Also, shots that MISS often have the desired effect.

    A lifetime of study, a fair amount of practical experience, Cirillo (whom I know personally, as well as the late Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, Dennis Tueller I have met, Bill Wilson Ken Hackathorn and many others, have lead me to realize that most defensive training with guns is aimed towards ranges that are too great, and reactions that are too slow, with guns that are too big to always be present, with loads that are too hard to control in lw, compact ccw firearms. your comments, please/?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2013
  2. buzzgunner

    buzzgunner 180 gr. of diplomacy

    In general, I agree with you. I've seen people at the range who seriously think that practicing to hit a police qualification target with their S&W model 629 is the proper why to train for self-defense. I just shake my head. I tell my students that a personal carry firearm should be no larger than .45 ACP and no smaller (ideally) that .38 Special. Within that range, the main considerations are ease of concealment, comfort (in the hand), ease of control, accuracy, and reliability (in necessarily in that order.) Then they need to practice presentation from concealment and double-tap on a human size/shape target at a reasonable range (no more than 7 meters, since most assaults occur within that range.)
  3. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Having lived most of my life in a trailer and now in an apartment where all I have is a couple of pieces of Sheetrock between me and my neighbors.
    Where the chance of a through and though or a miss could result in me killing one of my neighbors, I had a shotgun in the trailer and tomahawk for the apartment.

    When I learned to shoot as a kid, the old man who ran the range reinforced the idea of what was the backstop.
    Where was that bullet going to if you missed.
    I just don't want to take the risk.