1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. We've had very few donations over the year. I'm going to be short soon as some personal things are keeping me from putting up the money. If you have something small to contribute it's greatly appreciated. Please put your screen name as well so that I can give you credit. Click here: Donations
    Dismiss Notice

How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Christian, May 23, 2015.

  1. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    @Levite ?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
  3. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    Actually, I hate to break it to ya, bro, but nobody believes in Sheol anymore. Not for like 2,300 years or so.

    Though it is often mistranslated simply as "the grave," in Biblical times, it would appear that Sheol was thought of as an underworld, probably something vaguely akin to Hades: everybody went there when they died-- good, bad, mediocre, whatever. Though it does not appear to have been a place of torment, it also doesn't appear to have been a place of much joy, either.

    There is a concept that developed later in Judaism that's much closer to Hell, called Gehinom (for you Muslims, this is the ancestor concept and cognate word of Jahannam). It was a place where those who died with unrepented sins went in the afterlife, wherein they "worked off" their sin in some sort of unpleasant way-- some said merely spending time there, some characterized it with various unpleasant or even painful miseries, some with downright torturous afflictions for the truly evil. But it was not truly a Hell, but a purgatory: everyone was presumed to be there only temporarily. The usual maximum conceived of was a year. Belief in Gehinom seems to have begun around the turn of the Common Era, but it was never universal, and never dogmatic. It has been a more and less popular belief at different times, but overall, historically, most Jews seem to have chosen not to believe in Gehinom.

    In early Rabbinic times, some people apparently thought that any afterlife at all was only for the good, or at least decent: the wicked simply lost their afterlife privileges. That belief does not appear to have lasted much beyond the first couple centuries of the Common Era. Some people have apparently conceived of the good going directly to Olam ha-Ba ("The World To Come," more or less our analogue of Heaven, though it's not precisely the same thing), but the wicked being forced to wait in sort of an abeyance or limbo until the End of Time before being allowed into Olam ha-Ba.

    Others have dispensed entirely with any kind of anthropomorphism, and have characterized the "torment of Gehinom" or the waiting for "Olam ha-Ba" as the soul of the evildoer after death being objectively able to judge itself, and recognizing its own attenuated connection to God, which is said to be causative of more grief than any torture. Maimonidean rationalists believed that the ability of the soul to sustain any kind of individuality and consciousness after death was entirely dependent upon the person becoming ever more enlightened (through Torah study and study of [neo-]Aristotelian philosophy): the souls of the wicked, being unenlightened by nature, would just sort of exist as mindless energy. There have been various other attempts to conceive of and characterize the afterlife, as well: it's kind of a free-for-all, since Jews are required to believe in the eternality of the soul, but not to believe in any specific doctrine of the nature of the afterlife.

    Personally, I go with a Kabbalistic option (that is, something drawn from esoteric Jewish mysticism): gilgulei neshamot, which is basically reincarnation. If someone dies with unresolved sins, or insufficient meritorious acts or enlightenment, they get sent back-- again and again-- until they do good deeds equal or greater in merit to the evil deeds they did previously, and until they become enlightened: which is to say, they become compassionate, humble, empathetic, full of lovingkindness, and dedicated to justice and righteousness. Once that happens, they can choose to come back again-- kind of like a bodhisattva type of deal-- or they can move on to Olam ha-Ba.

    I tend to believe-- and I think I am not alone-- that believing in a God who would damn anyone, for any reason, to eternal torment is an extremely problematic and troubling theology. It is even more problematic if one is also postulating a God who is omnibenevolent. Most classical schools of Christian thought do both, and have to contort themselves into theological pretzels trying to reconcile those two conflicting concepts. This is why you see so many modern Christian theologians making radical departures from traditional Christian conceptualizations of Hell, traditional Christian understandings of who goes to Hell and why, and whether in fact Hell is at all literal: they consider the omnibenevolence of God to be unquestionable, and thus reinterpretation of the idea of Hell becomes absolutely necessary.

    Judaism didn't begin with a Hell concept, and even among those later who believed in Gehinom, I doubt many (if any) would have been able to believe in eternal damnation. Though Judaism does not claim that God is omnibenevolent (see Isaiah 45:7), it does claim that God is, overall, merciful, compassionate, loving, passionate about justice and righteousness, quick to forgive the sincerely repentant and infinite in His willingness to offer opportunity for repentance. These traits are simply incompatible with the idea that God would condemn anyone to eternal torment.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  4. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    As always, a very informative, educational post, @Levite. I appreciate your contributions to this thread.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    Thank you, @snowy! That's good of you to say, and much appreciated-- especially coming from you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    Look at me not keeping up with the times... :)

    Thanks, Levite.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. SirLance

    SirLance Death Therapist

    @levite, I really want to sit down and throw back a couple beers with you someday.

    @charlatan, are you then saying that the Jewish view of God is Omni benevolent, and Dante represents the classical Christian view? If so, I totally get what you're saying. Otherwise I'm still confused.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    I think you meant to address this to @baraka_guru
     
  9. SirLance

    SirLance Death Therapist

    Well, shit. I hate it when my brain does that....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Christian

    Christian New Member

    What do you base your beliefs upon?
     
  11. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    Secular humanism.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    Aaaaand we're right back at universalizing Christian theology as objective fact rather than subjective theology....
     
  13. SirLance

    SirLance Death Therapist

    Amen, brother...
     
  14. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Yes, I was referring to the Jewish view of God as omnibenevolent and Dante's representation of Christianity. Dante's view was in tune with late Medievalism, which had some very, uh, interesting ideas of what pious Christians should believe and do. If anything, it points out the various approaches people have to the faith. It reveals the multitude of interpretations. Many of the core beliefs are actually maintained to this day, which is why you get a lot of the Christian right still preaching fire and brimstone. The idea of original sin and the requirement to find salvation through Christ to avoid eternal damnation is a method of control to both convert and retain members of the faith.

    I have no problem with many of the core tenants of the New Testament. There are many parallels between them and many other systems of morality. It's in the specifics of Christianity that I get turned off, and fast.

    Ultimately, though, my issue is largely a nonstarter: I have never had a belief in a creator god. It would take a huge leap of faith for me to build one now. It would take a lot of work and introspection, and I don't see the benefit, considering I have no need of such a belief to formulate or maintain my morality or the reasoning behind it.

    In the end, out of the Abrahamic religions, I have the most respect for Judaism because it doesn't have proselytization as a modus operandi, and its view of nonbelievers actually makes sense. I was once told by a Jewish friend of mine that "I'm cool" because I don't break any of the commandments for gentiles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
    • Like Like x 2
  15. SirLance

    SirLance Death Therapist

    Ah, that viewpoint makes sense to me. You are referring to the current view people of the Jewish faith have. In what christians refer to as the old testament; God is definitely not omnibenevolent. He's pretty pissed off most of the time. In exemplis: 2 Kings 2:23–24 and Ezekiel 20:5

    You have got to read this comic: How to suck at your religion - The Oatmeal
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
  17. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    Is the rent expensive?;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Whoops. In my defence, both words come from the same Latin word (tenere: "to hold"). :p

    It looks like I'm fallible, unlike God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
    • Like Like x 3
  19. SirLance

    SirLance Death Therapist

    Baraka_Guru fallible? I refuse to believe it! Say it ain't so!
     
  20. Christian

    Christian New Member

    Many issues in the Bible which are objective are treated as subjective so you must be careful. Salvation is objective.