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Iran Military Shoots Down US Drone

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by PonyPotato, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. PonyPotato

    PonyPotato Very Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    I'm totally not going to participate any further in this thread because of finals and stuff, but I feel this is worth bringing to the attention of TFP.

    http://news.yahoo.com/iran-military-shoots-down-u-drone-state-tv-142804389.html
    So.. what do you think? Will Iran get any useful information from said drone? What will this due to US/Iran relations? How about Iran's relations with US Allies? Are we headed toward yet another war?
     
  2. Eddie Getting Tilted

    What U.S./Iran relations?
     
  3. bobGandalf

    bobGandalf Vertical

    Location:
    United States
    For the love of god, I swear, all these a-holes want nothing more then perpetual war.
     
  4. Alistair Eurotrash

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    All seems reasonable to me. I'd shoot down the drones too if they were over my country.

    Lots of sabre-rattling. The question is do enough people want a war? And when?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Of course Iran was right to shoot it down.

    If they get useful information, it's our own fault.

    US/Iran relations? The US does everything in its power to insure that such relations will never exist. If you want to set someone up as an enemy you don't extend a hand of compromise or welcome negotiations.

    Hopefully our allies (who are not chomping at the bit for another US war with a middle eastern country) will leave us expend our own blood and treasure in our colonial pursuits, as was pretty much the case with Iraq. With Obama at the helm, instead of GWB, it will answer the question of whether or not the problem lies simply with the administration in power or is the ongoing foreign policy regardless of who's in power.

    Are we headed for another war?. The drum beat for it says yes we are.
     
  6. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm assuming the U.S. knew the risks. I'm also assuming they calculated the consequences of this outcome.

    I'm also assuming U.S./Iran relations are largely predicated by U.S./Israeli relations.

    Once more information comes out of this, we'll have a better idea of what's going on.

    However, it doesn't look good for the U.S.:

    • Iran downs U.S. drone in Iranian airspace.
    • Deteriorating relations with Pakistan.
    • Recent evidence that the surge in Afghanistan resulted in a surge in U.S. casualties with little to show for it.
    • Strong Islamist electoral wins in Egypt (both conservative and radical).

    No, things aren't looking good at all.

    I suppose the pullout in Iraq is well-timed. I hope the troops will be ready for redeployment. You never know.
     
  7. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    We can't afford another war. That's fact, Jack - if you believe the Republicans when they claim that the deficit is the greatest threat to our national security.

    In the event war with Iraq becomes imminent, watch the Republicans retreat en mass from their campaign driven war to drive down the deficit with spending cuts - or at least as they apply to the defense budget. Though I imagine they will be still be looking in every dark corner for even greater social spending cuts.

    In an effort to defeat Obama in the upcoming election, there is always the chance they could threaten to veto defense funding for any such conflict but considering the hard-on they get over the very prospect of invading a sovereign nation, I suspect they will only paying lip service to the threat.
     
  8. fflowley

    fflowley Don't just do something, stand there!

    I still haven't seen confirmation on this one.
    Why would anyone be surprised that we are gathering info by spying with drones on Iran?
    It's equally unsurprising they would shoot one down.
    This will be forgotten in 48 hours. I think it's a big nothing.
     
  9. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    Yeah, they haven't produced evidence of it that I know of, and I'm kind of surprised that they don't have a self destruct option.

    I'm not sure what benefit a drone will have, unless there is a specific target they are trying to get a look at, or a group of people who are using Iran as a safe haven since Pakistan is out.

    Shooting down a drone can't be that easy.

    I think it is more propaganda personally to be used by the leaders of Iran against the West. Although after the GOP foreign policy debate, Iran got all of the confirmation they need.
     
  10. EventHorizon

    EventHorizon assuredly the cause of the angry Economy..

    Location:
    FREEDOM!
    to give you a frame of reference, the global hawk (flying digital camera, no armaments) has one of the largest wingspans of any aircraft in the USAF inventory. the advantage to this is that it creates a LOT of lift for a relatively lightweight aircraft. the downside is that with such a weak engine and the structural capability of the wings don't allow for it to be that maneuverable. Look at the U-2, it's pretty much the same thing.

    as for any data that might've been recovered, i doubt there would be anything capable of storing data on the drone. the idea behind a drone is that it's cheap and not a terrible loss if one gets downed/destroyed. also, drones aren't flying skynet bots that just execute a program and email "TheMan@usa.mil" with the "data.jpg" attachment. this is based on educated guesses but i'm pretty sure drones don't have any sort of data storage on board, but instead use an uplink to instantly transfer the data back to the controllers. kind of like how a webcam works. the webcam itself doesn't hold any data.

    [camouflaging comment about disapproval of the US just to fit in]

    if Iran wants to be the aggressors in a conventional war with us... well the last conventional desert war ended up with our F-15s having a perfect air-to-air record and only one tank lost to friendly fire, i doubt we'll be the ones to start said shit.
     
  11. Eddie Getting Tilted

    Nah, we want their oil, plain and simple. Also, the fact that Iran acts like a complete jackass with every country that isn't Russia, China or North Korea doesn't bode well for them either. Can you say "enriched uranium?"

    The Pakistanis need our billions of dollars every year. Also, they don't like Iran slightly less than they hate America. So it's no sweat off their sack if we attack Iran, as long as we keep pumping those greenbacks at 'em.

    Just like I said it was, and everybody got all pissy with me. The arab spring was nothing but a removal of secularists replaced by radical islamists. Yay for the world!

    We couldn't afford Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya either...but that didn't stop us.
     
  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    You also don't want Iran to have too much sovereignty. You know, the kind afforded a nation with nukes. But I suppose that might be tied together somewhat.

    However, China has far more interest in Iranian oil that the U.S., so there's that the U.S. will have to contend with as well.

    Iran isn't the reason for the troubles with Pakistan. You might want to look it up and read a bit about it before commenting on it further. That is, if it won't mean any "sweat off your sack." (You really like that image, don't you?)

    Settle down there, cowboy. The radicals don't have the lead. They barely took a quarter of the vote. Also, by the way, this is just Egypt, not "Arabland." Again, you might want to try reading a bit.

    C'mon now. You guys beat the Great Depression in large part by finally deciding to join WWII. It was one of the greatest public works projects in history.

    It's too soon to tell anything. The U.S. hasn't confirmed anything about the drone. Regardless, attacking Iran would be a really stupid move, and that's even excluding the potential financial cost.
     
  13. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    True, but they also paid for it by raising their taxes. In fact, historically, all of their wars (including independence) were paid for with a raise in taxes.

    It will be interesting to see if the US can get its collective head around the idea that taxes pay for their wars (instead of going to war, as Bush and Co. did, while cutting taxes).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. pan6467

    pan6467 a triangle in a circular world.

    If anything this will piss the Brits off more. I could see a skirmish happening, after all it wasn't our choice to leave Iraq, we were basically told to leave. Wouldn't be hard to transfer everything over the Iran/Iraq border. Especially if Iran has nuke capability. They are a wild card, they saber rattle and get attention then back off. One of these days, someone will call the schoolyard bully's bluff and we may see Iran is weaker than Hussein was. With all the turmoil the Middle East has seen this year, I don't see many countries that will be willing to help out Iran. China maybe, but I don't think they would help Iran as much as we may think they would.

    As for Pakistan relations, they suck, but we are also strong allies (as far as I know) with their most hated enemy India. That's why Pakistan has nukes, to deter India.

    This all gives us more reason to get off petro and use alternative fuel or drill here.

    As for WW2 helping, it did but we were also well on our way to coming back anyway. War Bonds baby, that paid for the war, moreso than taxes. Which I am surprised our government doesn't do for our current tryst. Of course by doing that they'd have to be more forthcoming with the truth and events over there.
     
  15. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Let me give a brief summary.

    1. Pakistan hates Iran, and their relationship has for a long time been a very bad one. The main conflict here is not regional superiority, it's cultural/religious just as is the case with the Arab countries. It's all about a power struggle between the Sunnis and the Shia.

    2. The US is losing a lot of ground in the Middle East not because of radical Islamists (though they are one of the factors out there), but because of a hugely unpopular war in Iraq, regionally-undesirable backing of Israel in everything it does without any serious consequence, not supporting Palestine (which many Arabs, Turks, Persians, Afghans and Pakis openly support), supporting the Mubarak-regime in Egypt for decades (that fact will keep being a pain in the ass for the US for a long time) and because Israel has really, really fucked up with its neighbors (especially Egypt and Turkey) by generally being an arrogant prick, making the US look bad in turn.

    3. Iran is not weak. It cannot be compared to Saddam's Iraq, because Iran has a huge cultural advantage. I know perfectly well this is racist, but the vast majority of Arabs are a bunch of lazy gits (can't help racism, if it's true). If there is any culture that comes close to German and Japanese productivity (per capita) and intellect, it's the Persians. They work hard, are highly skilled (on average, compared to its regional neighbors) and are extremely patriotic (which helps them tremendously in having a strong military).

    4. Russia's KGB-era leadership still sees itself on equal footing with the US in an undeclared second Cold War, and militarily they're still a force to be reckoned with. They have, and will continue to, support Iran in all defensive and offensive capabilities.

    5. China is in a race to acquire natural resources. Iran has tons of oil. Ergo, China will bitchslap the US military over Iran as much as it can afford to do so without losing vital trade with the US. Consequently, there'll be a lot of backroom dealings, financial support and maybe even armaments.

    Conclusion: The US is not in a position to start a war with Iran. The only option it has is to cripple Iran's economy as much as possible through its European friends.
     
  16. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm with Remixer on this one. I wouldn't underestimate China. For starters, where do you think Iran gets its missile capacity from? Second, Iran is China's third largest source of oil. Third, China has been buying a shit-ton more oil from Iran recently (i.e. within the past year). Fourth, China has low oil reserves.

    China's economy is heavily dependent on its capacity to increase its oil imports. An Iranian war or oil crisis is something that will negatively and disproportionately affect China. They're going to be against it.
     
  17. EventHorizon

    EventHorizon assuredly the cause of the angry Economy..

    Location:
    FREEDOM!
    ^this

    except if the chinese military is going to keep trying to scare people with videos of their J-10 featuring stolen clips from Top Gun then they should really reconsider how intimidating they actually are. not to mention that a conventional war and a counterinsurgency are two completely different armed conflicts. we're really good at one of them and learning ALOT of lessons about the other. i know i'm biased but there's my opinion anyways
     
  18. pan6467

    pan6467 a triangle in a circular world.

    I don't think this applies to me as I would agree. My point was that Pakistan and India also hate each other and we as far as I know are strong allies with India. Which, could be a major issue of consideration for China, as India is at this time their major economic nemesis. We're not even competing anymore. We give them our jobs.

    This I also agree with, blind allegiance to Israel and keeping despots in power then taking last minute stands in choosing sides with the rebels definitely isn't a plus for us. The support of the despots goes all the way back to WW2 also, when we and the USSR were vying for the region.

    I don't know if I'd call them anymore lazy than we here in the US are. Let's face it war is unpopular, expensive not just monetarily but in lives and outcomes are never a true given, if they were Japan and Germany would have won WW2. I think we are blase about the current war because it isn't on the front page or in the news much at all, one has to truly dig to find info. Now, if we go to war with Iran, it becomes a different story with support. Many argued we should have gone into Iran instead of Iraq. Being highly skilled and highly patriotic under an extremely strict dictatorship does not mean they have an advantage, if anything we can look to WW2 and see that as a disadvantage because all 3 Axis powers had those qualities, strong military or not.

    I'm sure the KGB does exist and does see itself on equal footing but I really don't think they'd be much of an issue. Bismark's rule "let sleeping bears sleep". Getting involved without their country's support (and I don't see Russia supporting involvement as a country), I don't think would be much of a factor. The past 2 World Wars Russia has dealt with interior issues and switching allegiances midway through the war. Let us not forget, Hitler and Stalin, may not have liked each other but Stalin did side with Hitler provided Hitler left him alone. When Hitler invaded the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was null and void.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact

    With China, it could be another Korea/Vietnam type policy, where in both cases they could have vetoed UN involvement but refused. They supported N Korea and N Vietnam financially and militarily but never "officially" took a side. I don't see China really wanting a war, it would destroy any economic advantage they have on us.

    WW2 we were not in a position either, nor were we in WW1, in both cases we got our asses kicked at first but we built our factories, converted factories and made sacrifices. I think if push came to shove the American people could and would do it again. The ONLY issue I truly see in that aspect is a strong leader in the White House.

    My conclusion is that sadly perhaps a war of that magnitude would actually bring this country together and unite us to a single cause. I think we appear more fractured than we truly deep down are. We may be down but we aren't dead. We have come back before to overcome impossible odds, perhaps as was said in Stripes and John Belushi's 1941 monologue, we are the underdogs but we are also fighters who don't give up easily. Plus, even if it does seem passe these days, we have the "natural defense" of 2 oceans protecting us and the strongest navy in the history of the world. So strong that most other navies have our decommissioned ships. Last I heard Turkey had the ship I was on, (the USS TC Hart FF1092).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    No, the Indians aren't strong allies of the US. They like both the US and China for the economic benefits, and because it's still prestigious to be Western-minded. Russia has its hand deep within India, back from the Cold War days. Given that Iran works very actively in the shadows against Pakistan, India may feel solidarity to the Persians as an enemy of their enemy. If anything, the Indians dislike the US for propping up the importance of Pakistan for such a long time. This all goes back to the Cold War, where the Soviet Union got involved in India and the US got involved in Pakistan (and then continued to do so until very recently). Unlike the Americans, the rest of the world does remember their past actions.

    Arabs are unbelievably lazy. You will not be able to understand the magnitude of their laziness until you've worked/lived with them.

    You're underestimating unofficial support. It's what kept the Taliban alive after 10 years of war. Russia will support Iran in all military areas, except getting its own military involved in the firefight. Even, if it's only for old time's sake.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact

    The hell you talking about? Your side would've won the Korea War hadn't a whole mass of Chinese soldiers and tanks quickly destroyed any gains you made.

    China will never declare war on the US, unless in defense or when their military overwhelmingly outmatches yours. They will (and already do) support your enemies, though. Iran is one of them.

    I love how the Americans just can't get enough of overstating their importance in WW2. The picture would likely have been very different hadn't the Soviet Union been forced to enter the fray.

    From all your points I gained one piece of knowledge on you: Either you are completely oblivious to the current "silent war" between the largest powers in the world, or you are hugely underestimating it. China and Russia are doing much, much more against the US' (and in some aspects the EU's) sphere of influence than you are aware of.
     
  20. bobGandalf

    bobGandalf Vertical

    Location:
    United States
    I finally saw this story reported on the network news. I was starting to wonder if they were going to ignore it totally. I guess they thought the idiocy going on in the Republican primary was more important.
     
    • Like Like x 1