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Is Capitalism Broken?

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by ASU2003, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Uh...I agree they should save...but I also know often they CANNOT save.
    Kind of hard to save when you're feeding yourself...and perhaps others. Because you know they are POOR.

    And I'm sure they would "love" a piece of our economy, but they CAN'T. Again, because they are POOR.

    Not lost, I just don't understand how you cannot get how people are POOR.
    Poor means they do NOT have money to do things beyond the basics, if even that.
    You know...Eat, Keep Warm, Dress and other "vague" items.

    They aren't depressed for jollies. They aren't frustrated for warm & fuzzies. They aren't angry, just for kicks.

    See, not everyone has the same intelligence and/or luck you have.
    Sometimes they start that way.
    Sometimes they get that way.

    Take it from someone who IS skilled and intelligent and makes a good wage.
    ONE friggin' bad turn (like a health issue) can put you under. And that's just luck.

    Capitalism works.
    But even those with skill and talent can't do shit if they can't ever get a leg up.
    I'm not saying they shouldn't work hard.
    I'm not saying that we should pay for it.

    I am saying, that sometimes, things are easier said than done.
    And take that from someone who's come up from nowhere and had nothing.
    In many ways, I got lucky.
    And in some ways, I got help. (from family, certainly NOT the government, I'm too "well" to get help from them...they just take my money)
    And I'm grateful for both.

    Now, I'm damn good at investing...it's just a shame that everytime I get results for a brief time, I have to cash out for emergencies.
    Or I don't have enough liquidity to take advantage ...again due to emergencies.

    Life's a bitch. It's fair to some. It's not to others.
    I don't mind people making money.
    I just mind TWO things.
    One, I want those who are making money to not gip others for even more money. (which many ARE doing)
    Two, I want those who are making money to comprehend that others may not be able to make money for good reason. (not "just" lazy)

    You get that?? Or did you get lost yourself??
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
    • Like Like x 3
  2. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Part of the problem with the poor is the lack of assets and, in many cases, carrying debt. Factor in a low income with little, if any, discretionary income, and being debt-free is a tough enough challenge, let alone building assets.

    Much of the wealth disparity is undermined when people look at income only. Real incomes have been flat for the middle and lower classes, but this is paired with few assets relatively speaking compared to the richest Americans. Wealth is built over time from income earnings and the growth of assets. When the poor have few earnings to contribute and no assets, they go nowhere fast. When trying to boost income through work fails, there is nothing else to do, as there are no assets to work with.

    So basically they get stuck.

    The wealthy? Even if they decide not to work, they can still derive an income from their assets. In many cases, it can dwarf the income of those who bust their asses at two and a half jobs.
     
  3. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    AND...I will say that there are some poor that do abuse the system and are lazy.
    BUT...It can be equally said that some wealthy that do so also.

    Unless you can explain subsidies that are going to companies with record profits.
    Or wealthy estates that are getting them under "farming" subsidies. (Even in the middle of Manhattan???)
    Or those that write off a significant percentage of their taxes for ambiguous reasons. (Tax-havens anyone??)
    and so on...

    Abuse is not exclusive to any class.

    So why do well off people and entities get away with this when we prosecute those who don't have as much??? (Corruption anyone?)
    Why shouldn't the government go after them too?? (I believe I've heard the rationalization of "job-creators" in the past)
    The essence of LAW is that is should apply to everyone.

    If I have to pay a certain percent for my income, then others should pay the same percent on their gains. (which IS income)
    If I get fined for littering, then I expect a factory that dumps chemicals into water to get one too. (although bigger, because the impact is bigger)
    If you get put in jail for DUI, then you should expect that the pretty rich celebrity gets a stay in the slammer too.

    Equal.
    Your class should not denote your ability...nor should it adjust the consequences of law.

    And if you make tons of money...GREAT, excellent, spend away. Enjoy.
    Just don't think you deserve a different standard.

    So if some companies and farmers or other industries CAN have subsidies to assist through difficult times...which is reasonable. (within reason)
    Then some people can have some assistance also, during difficult times. (within reason)

    Equal.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    It was satire.
    --- merged: Mar 16, 2013 at 12:46 PM ---
    DC,

    Do you know only about 5% of the working population is making minimum wage and that 50% of those are under 25 years old? I bet you didn't?

    How long did it take for you to earn more than minimum wage? What was it that lead to you earning more than minimum wage? Why not put your focus on that - i,e, helping people develop jobs skills that are valued greater than minimum wage?

    Isn't the whole political push for minimum wage increases simply a political farse used be liberals to demonstrate a concern, a false concern, for poor people?

    No need to address the questions, I know you can't.

    Your Bud,

    Ace
    --- merged: Mar 16, 2013 at 12:59 PM ---
    Well let's look at this. One reason why I support a consumption tax is because I do not think a persons labor should be taxed.

    If labor is the only resource some people have to accumulate wealth, don't tax the fruits of their labor. Under payroll taxation, the government gets it cut first. Why not end this? Why not have that money go into a real individual account, an account that has rights of survivorship? Wouldn't this make a measurable difference in the wealth gap over time?

    I am not even going to discuss, what anyone can readily see if time is spent in low income areas. I once talked to a group of guys playing basketball - I asked them to add up the value of the shoes they wore - then I shared with them some info on Nike stock. The message was buy a few shares and wear your shoes longer - eventually the returns in your ownership will pay for your shoes! they though I had just landed in from Mars - not too much different than I am perceived around here. And Yes, they had a thousand reasons why it could not be done.

    I wonder, how many of you here on TFP bought a share or two of Google/Amazon/Ebay/Apple/Microsoft/Facebook - assuming you use and value this type of technology?

    Please stop. In this country historically we know that even slaves saved money. Some bought their freedom. Don't tell me people today can not save! If you believe that go ahead and keep on believing it, I don't. I know better. Let's say we are going to disagree.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2013
  5. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    With all due respect, it's very difficult to tell with you. Some would say nearly impossible.
    --- merged: Mar 16, 2013 at 1:22 PM ---
    Would you say the American economy hasn't changed in 150 years?
    --- merged: Mar 16, 2013 at 1:24 PM ---
    About 25% of private-sector workers earn less than $10 an hour.
    --- merged: Mar 16, 2013 at 1:31 PM ---
    A common misconception is that minimum-wage jobs are only transitional jobs or jobs for students. The harsh reality is that many adults are getting stuck in jobs earning the current minimum wage or not much higher, and often without benefits because it's technically part-time work (often just short of full-time). It's even the case for people trained in other work worth more money. Underemployment is an issue.

    “You Want Fries With That?” Underemployment Remains Stubbornly High | Breakout - Yahoo! Finance
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2013
  6. Only about 25%? The service industry is chock full of clerks and delivery personnel at low wages and under 35 hours a week. When I recommend to my District Manager that someone be rewarded for their efforts with a 50 cent raise above minimum wage, I get stonewalled. Just let them get frustrated and leave. We've got binders full of job applicants.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Manic

    Manic Getting Tilted

    Location:
    NYC
    More and more words and yet I can still only infer what you mean. Might I suggest a few links to help you hone those (abhorrent and disgusting) ideas of yours:

    Eugenics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Biopower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Human population control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  8. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Actually 25% is quite substantial when you look at the numbers.

    Over 80% of the workforce has a high school education or above. Nearly a third has a bachelor's degree or higher. Only about 12% don't have a high school education.

    Now you consider that 1 out of every 4 private-sector workers are earning less than $10. The significance of that number is related to findings that living wages, state to state, are anywhere between $3 to $7 higher than the Federal minimum wage of $7.25.

    Those under the age of 25 make up about half of minimum wage earners. The other half are made up of workers ranging between 25 and over 70. Add in the wage range between, say, $8 and $9 an hour, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the age distribution skew higher.

    These numbers mean a few things. Two things that come to mind is that 1) Those making less than a living wage (e.g., $10/hour) aren't all young people who are students or who are in transitional jobs, and 2) Many of those making less than a living wage have a high school education or higher, and are likely underemployed.

    As it's looking these days, you need a college degree to land a job paying $10 an hour, and many graduates are doing just that. Many of them will find entry-level jobs ranging between $10 and $15 an hour.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
  9. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    Why, thank you Manic for your insightful and inciteful links. You may "infer that I mean" to give them the full attention that they deserve. I appreciate your willingness to share your expertise in the abhorrent and disgusting, (by which I infer that you mean ideas different from yours) especially the biopower link.

    I did some reading of Foucault when I was in college. I had a wisdom tooth extracted in the same semester. I found the dental work more enlightening and less painful.
    I do find the Foucault Pendulum interesting and enjoyed sitting on the stairs by the one at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. But that's a different Foucault.

    Perhaps you could find me a spot in a re-education camp where I would be gently turned back in the right left direction. After all, we can't have folks going around with ideas different than yours, now can we?
     
  10. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    Why would we limit the birth rate of the poor? Who will take out the trash?
     
  11. Manic

    Manic Getting Tilted

    Location:
    NYC
    Erl
    Spare me the bruised ego routine, you apparently believe something about the poor, their being poor and their reproduction but you won't just come out and say it. You're offended only so long as you don't have to explain and defend yourself. My heart goes out, really it does.
     
  12. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    it's fabulous that fascism still finds some traction and that the folk with whom it finds that traction are, as one would expect, so quick to cast themselves as the victim.
     
  13. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    I am on food stamps now. Come fuck with me.
    --- merged: Mar 17, 2013 at 12:10 AM ---
    Please. I would really like to have this conversation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2013
  14. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I doubt that is true. When I say poor people need to engage in ownership in our economy as a means to lessen the wealth gap, I doubt it is impossible to know the statement is not satire.


    You are encouraging a diversion from the topic in this thread. In my mind, your question suggests a focus on a trivial matter. However I will answer - in some ways the American economy has changed and in other ways it has not. what now? A lengthy exchange on how using modern technology makes saving money more or less difficult? I am the type of person who will debate anything any time - how you proceed is your choice. Red or blue pill...(satirical reference to the Matrix movie otherwise there was no satire (except for me pointing out the use of satire otherwise there was no satire (except for...oh, I hope you get it by now)))


    In a normal economy (other than the Obama economy) minimum wage jobs are entry level or they serve as base compensation with some other form of compensation above the minimum wage often based on performance or results. People you make a choice to transition from one minimum wage job to another for their own reasons - make that choice.
    --- merged: Mar 17, 2013 at 9:03 AM ---
    My first payroll job subject to minimum wage was at McDonald's when I was 16. I started cleaning the lobby and bathrooms. In less than three months I was making more than minimum wage. I was eager to learn new skills, I was fast to go through training materials, I got to work early, I volunteered to do more, I took pride in my work (I felt a person could eat off the floor when I was on duty) - all that mattered. If a person is stuck at minimum wage, I would love to talk to that person and understand why. If a person has value that is not being rewarded perhaps they need to be a bit more assertive. It may be a coaching issue. If your boss says no, perhaps a better presentation is in order. It is easy to say no. If you get a no and walk away that is easy too. Getting a no and fighting takes effort. The effort is worth it. If no is the best answer you can get, live with it while looking for a new job.
    --- merged: Mar 17, 2013 at 9:21 AM ---
    At various times in my life my family was on food stamps - and that was back in the days when they were actually food stamps. When my mother would send me to the sore to get milk or something, everyone knew when you used food stamps. We were not ashamed and always knew better days would come - we sincerely believed that - I knew some others in a similar situation who I don't believe thought that way. There has to be a means to support people in need. Some will have a temporary need, others like the elderly/disabled/children may have a long-term need. No one is "fucking" with that, contrary to what some will say, especially about conservatives. However, in a broader context when we think of poor people perhaps we need to be more specific.

    There are some people who engage in destructive personal behavior who are poor and will stay poor until they end the destructive behavior. Behaviors, like excessive illegal drug use, excessive alcoholism, excessive gambling, criminal behavior, etc. Social solutions to these problems have absolutely noting to do with capitalism. In addition, other fixes are obvious. For example unwed teenage pregnancy almost always leads to the child being raised in poverty. Again, this has nothing to do with poverty. Low income working people can accumulate wealth and some financial security. The tools and means are known and available.
    --- merged: Mar 17, 2013 at 9:25 AM ---
    Are you talking about organizations that exploit poverty, racism or both? In 2013 I think demagoguery of poverty is worse than racism. Africa is a complex subject in regard to poverty.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2013
  15. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    And the people using social services, let's say, unethically are the larger part of the problem with our system? More so, perhaps, than corruption among the very rich? Is this something you truly believe?
     
  16. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    Aceventura , if your family has been on them, then surely you know how hard it is to get on them and stay on them. It takes a lot of hoop jumping, willingness to deal with bureaucracy, and proof of income--repeatedly. If this is not the case, then that is a local government issue, not a federal issue, since states are responsible for issuing SNAP benefits. Additionally, yes, SNAP benefits come on plastic cards now--but I don't think that makes them any harder to spot. It's not really a system left open for abuse. I'm sure there are people who abuse it, but that is true for any system.

    You also clearly don't understand that no matter how hard you work, there are some organizations out there that aren't going to give you a raise or more hours. For the last several years, employment options have been limited, no matter what your accomplishments or work effort. Companies and organizations aren't paying people what they deserve. I worked for two years at an organization that had completely done away with their system of raises. No matter how hard I worked, I was never going to earn more. Real wages have stagnated: The sad but true story of wages in America | Economic Policy Institute Depending on where people live, their options may be even more limited. Perhaps the only place to work in town is Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart often caps hours for workers so that they cannot receive health benefits. According to the Washington Post, one growing segment of society is the working poor: Ranks of working poor increasing - Washington Post These are the people that need SNAP benefits and the social safety net; no matter how hard they work, their wages just aren't high enough to get ahead.

    And I'm disappointed that I missed the discussion on financing college education a few pages back. To sum up, there is a limit on how much students can borrow from the federal government. There are caps for every year, and there are lifetime caps. Any money over those caps comes from a private source, either private loans or grants from the institution the person is attending (this is true in the case of private schools with large endowments) or from scholarships.


    Year
    Dependent Students (except students whose parents are unable to obtain PLUS Loans)
    Independent Students (and dependent undergraduate students whose parents are unable to obtain PLUS Loans)

    First-Year Undergraduate
    $5,500—No more than $3,500 of this amount may be in subsidized loans.
    $9,500—No more than $3,500 of this amount may be in subsidized loans.

    Second-Year Undergraduate
    $6,500—No more than $4,500 of this amount may be in subsidized loans.
    $10,500—No more than $4,500 of this amount may be in subsidized loans.

    Third-Year and Beyond Undergraduate
    $7,500 per year—No more than $5,500 of this amount may be in subsidized loans.
    $12,500 per year—No more than $5,500 of this amount may be in subsidized loans.

    Graduate or Professional Degree Students
    Not Applicable
    $20,500

    Maximum Total Debt from Subsidized and Unsubsidized Loans
    $31,000—No more than $23,000 of this amount may be in subsidized loans.
    $57,500 for undergraduates—No more than $23,000 of this amount may be in subsidized loans.

    $138,500 for graduate or professional students—No more than $65,500 of this amount may be in subsidized loans. The graduate debt limit includes all federal loans received for undergraduate study.Subsidized and Unsubsidized Loans | Federal Student Aid
     
    • Like Like x 3
  17. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm not talking about the obvious shit. (Obviously.)

    You vaguely discussed the economic situation of slaves when someone was talking about people in 2013. I asked you a question as an attempt to see the relevancy of what you said. Don't accuse me of a diversion. Don't make yourself out as someone accommodating another's pointless ranting. Slavery was outlawed in America 150 years ago. You're trolling. Stop it.

    As one example, through the '60s and most of the '80s, baby boomers were able to own a house raise a family on a single income on working-class wages. How feasible is this today?

    Who has benefited the most from modern technology, financially speaking?

    What's a "normal" economy? What's "the Obama" economy?

    Since when are minimum wage jobs exclusively entry-level instead of also being only-level? Since when are minimum wage jobs exclusively based on performance instead of also being jobs where performance means shit? If one has a choice between three, four, five, ten, twenty minimum wage-jobs or jobs within $1 of minimum wage what kind of choice would you consider that? What about a choice of any job under $10 an hour (a living wage)?
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  18. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    Thank you, snowy. It is difficult to get into the system and once you're there, they make it difficult for you to stay there. For the last two years I was making approx. $15,000 a year, a single mom and because I share a home with my daughter (who works at a grocery store for $8.50 an hour) they turned us down. It wasn't until my school hours interfered with my working hours to the degree that they have now that they approved me. The vast majority of the people in the system are honest and truly depend on the help that they get. I, personally, am insulted by the insinuation that hardworking people who are having trouble staying afloat in this lopsided, bloated, irrational economic clusterfuck that we live in are the ones who are hurting this society. When it's obvious that billions, trillions of our tax dollars go into corporate black holes and dubious wars and none of us really know how it is accounted for. And then you have some motherfucker standing in a grocery line making sure the person in front of them with the ebt card isn't buying a frigging candy bar. Oh yes, people are really living it up on foodstamps. Yee ha.

    It's the defamation of the poor. It's scapegoating.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    mixedmedia

    Thanks for sharing. The other side of that, of course, is that people are poor for no reasons other than their own — they're poor because they choose to be.