1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. We've had very few donations over the year. I'm going to be short soon as some personal things are keeping me from putting up the money. If you have something small to contribute it's greatly appreciated. Please put your screen name as well so that I can give you credit. Click here: Donations
    Dismiss Notice

It's the Economy, stupid - Languishing & Lingering after the Great Recession

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by rogue49, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Cool we have some subjects I have some personal experience with, daycares and living not quite paycheck to paycheck.

    When my kids were little and Alaska was going through one of it's weird downturns I started a daycare.
    I figured I could spend time with my kids and make money at the same time.
    The process was complicated as hell but not onerous.
    We had regular inspections, there was a shitload of paperwork to fill out, and our we spent a good portion of our time worrying about paying the bills.
    But not because of regulations.
    First off I made the mistake of taking a lot of people on daycare assistance (paperwork and tons of it).
    We had a couple of times due to the wonders of bureaucracy that the checks from the government didn't show up.
    Actually one time the inspector, you know one of the people who enforced those evil regulations, went to bat for us and made them cut us another check so we could pay out people.
    I agree that all daycares should be licensed and inspected but the religious right has been part of the group fighting that idea tooth and nail.
    Yes it can be annoying but for the safety of our kids it's a reasonable thing to ask just like I think all schools should have consistent education and certified teachers.
    If they tried to set a national standard for daycares there would be a scream that makes the the freak out about the common core look like a burp.

    As to the payday loans issue, those are pure evil.
    Back when we had to get through that last week or so till the next paycheck we went to the one place that really makes sense, the pawn shop.
    You'd take your shotgun or a couple of rings that got back when things were better and you'd get enough to make it till payday.
    Come payday, you'd go down and get your stuff out of hock.
    They didn't charge outrageous interest and you could always take it back in again if you needed it next time.
     
  2. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Could the process be streamlined or improved? I assume, yes. And if true regulators should do that. We should always work to improve the system, having that mindset. I believe the majority of regulators and lawmakers don;t think this way.

    I am not anti-regulation. When I get a burger at a local restaurant, I like knowing there are regulations making sure the burger they sell me is safe to eat. Regulations can be good for an industry. And it is because of consistent national standards that, A) I get a safe good burger to eat and B) A company like McDonald's or the Mom and Pop burger joint can make a nice profit selling me a burger, fries and a Coke for lunch. My observation of the daycare business is that due to all of the different standards, inconsistent enforcement and the black market for daycare the industry can not develop large economies of scale. Even the mom and pop burger joint gets economy of scale from national suppliers like Sysco.

    Again, another area for improvement. The liberal side of me says quality daycare on a national standard should be available for every child in the country. Register, show up, and the bill gets paid, it can all be done electronically. Imagine the pressure taken off of working poor families. Imagine the artificial pressure that can taken off of the minimum wage debate. The pressure taken off of business when they hire no/low skill workers who chronically have issues with daycare for children. These are the types of things that can really make a difference for the working poor and small business owners.

    I would think only a small minority would be against reasonable regulatory standards for daycare centers and i can not imagine what their rational is. However, a religious institution should be able to conduct business consistent with their religious views as long as those views are not inconsistent with child health and safety.

    Perhaps an initial scream. Just like there are Federal food and safety laws for my burger, there can be Federal childcare safety standards and regulations.

    Until you need one.


    Some people do not have anything of value to pawn, they get a job it will be two weeks before payday and they need X. In the US it is unforgivable that people trying to do better do not have access to micro-loan programs similar to what some US agencies do in foreign countries. Large national banks should be engaged in this. If we want to help poor people help themselves we should do these types of things. Again, it helps people and helps the economy/business.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
  3. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    HHS has proposed national standards for daycare...at least for those 1/2 million day care centers that receive federal subsidies.


    And the U.S. Postal Service has an interesting plan for post offices to offer basic banking services (in partnership with banks) supported by Liz Warren and condemned by Republicans.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Do we agree that these are important issues for the working poor and deserve attention?

    In my view it is only lip service given to issues like this that can have a real impact on the lives of working poor from Washington. Yes, there is going to be resistance and policy disagreements, so what! Who is willing to spend political capital on these issues?

    The issue of childcare is not only an issue for the working poor, in particular single working mothers, but it is a big issue for small business owners. When a small employer has a mom who has to take unscheduled/unpredictable time off to handle childcare related issues it hurts both the employer and the employee. Having mom preoccupied with childcare issues and not focused on work, hurts both the employer and the employee. Unskilled/low skilled workers have an extremely hard time gaining job skills and experiences due to the unaffordable nature of daycare for people in this category. A business owner paying someone $12/hr. (where 1/2 or more could go to childcare even with assistence depending on the number of children and type of care needed) is not easy to do when the small employer has to invest thousands of dollars in training before the employee becomes productive. Pushing minimum wage increases simply does not address the problem in a comprehensive manner. Perhaps, we would not expect a Republican administration to push a comprehensive plan for the working poor, why can't we expect it from a Democratic Party administration? The disjointed minor regulatory adjustments, that is some cases make the problem worse, is not good enough.

    Also, keep in mind that employer firms (those with employees, not counting entities with no employees) with less than 100 employees account for 70% of all US employment.

    Statistics about Business Size (including Small Business) from the U.S. Census Bureau
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  5. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Obama signed the Child Care and Development Block Grant Act of 2014 last year. It represents the first update of federal child care programs and provisions in 20 years.

    --- merged: Apr 3, 2015 at 5:05 PM ---
    Now f we could only get Repubs from blocking proposals for universal pre-school, we would make real progress!

    And, not just in safe and affordable day care, but in providing quality early education that is backbone to addressing so many problems.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    There are problems:

    Confronting the Child Care Eligibility Maze: States and the Child Care Development Fund | Policy For Results

    At the core the fundamental issue is in a bureaucratic approach to the problem. Creating new laws and regulations not accessible to those in need is inefficient - it hurts the working poor, the industustry and indirectly employers. My theme is not that I am anti-regulation, I have no problem with effective and efficient regulation.

    The legislation you cite had support of Republicans.


    We always hear talk of comprehensive plans - this is an issue in desperate need of a comprehensive solution - including streamlining healthcare delivery to children, under Obamacare it is still a mess and loads of inconsistencies in medical coverage for children based on either their zip code or the status of their parents/guardians. Obama gives a short speech about payday loans, Elizabeth Warren goes on a few talk shows and talks about big banks robbing Americans but there is nothing being done in a coherent manner. Just do enough, just say enough so that the majority of voters think something is being done. What is being done is not helping. Why not criticize those in your party not doing anything, if you think this is an important issue. I know I can make an appeal to small business owners - they are on the front lines dealing with thes issues from an employer point of view.

    Marissa Mayer a hero to women's groups does this:

    nohttp://gawker.com/5987043/yahoo-ceo-marissa-mayer-installed-a-nursery-in-her-officet be so well received.

    She is not a middle aged "evil" white male capitalist. Perhaps women's groups need to do due diligence on who they put on pedestals.
     
  7. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    This is what conservatives do on a regularly basis.

    Complain about a problem, offer no solutions, criticize solutions by Democrats.
    --- merged: Apr 5, 2015 2:36 PM ---
    added:

    The Democrats do have a comprehensive plan to address payday loans through the Consumer Finance Protection Board that the Republicans have tried to gut on numerous occasions in the last three years.

    Obama touts consumer watchdog's plans to regulate payday loans| Reuters

    It is not perfect and may not go far enough, but far better than nothing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  8. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    And now for our continuing wage lag saga...
    S&P 500 Rallying 206% Beats Wage Growth by Most in Five Decades

    It is only now that wages on the lower sectors are growing.
    I know that IT markets started upwards this past summer...but that may be due to a worker shortage overall...not a mindset philosophy.

    The question is...will it continue??
     
  9. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    What liberals do is fail to recognize what is being made crystal clear. The solution to the child day care problem:

    Streamline the regulations so that the people who qualify for benefits actually get them. My suggestion is to register a child, verify attendance and have payment made direct to the provider for those who qualify for assistance (in my view universal coverage for all children for basic day care services - paid for by addressing ineffectiveness in our current system of delivery and tax code modifications)

    Establish consistent national regulatory standards, promoting one set of rules allowing for economies of scale and an giving the industry the ability to streamline and lower costs.

    In addition, this is an issue for small employers who depend on low skill labor. When parents have affordable, reliable and accessible daycare it lowers business costs and improves employee productivity. We can establish private public partnerships to assist people with low or no skills with children to enter the workforce. Currently this is very difficult - in some cases a business will not take the risk of training an employee in this circumstance at an artificially high wage - in some cases the potential employee can not afford the cost of day care and can not take the risk of trying to enter the workforce with a mirrade of convoluted rules for various benefits.

    In summery make regulations in this area simpler and more effective.

    We can flesh-out the detail if need be, so let's not pretend that the above can not be accomplished because it is presented in a broad general manner.

    Your comment about conservatives is baseless.

    The problem is in the approach. Regulate a "bad" industry serving the poor, increase the costs, put the industry out of business - while not giving the poor an alternative.

    Again, my solution, through regulation is to force big banks (beneficiaries of generous public policy such that the industry is enjoying government supported record profits while assuming virtually no risk because they are to big to fail, as they are bigger today than ever before while local small banks and credit unions are less competitive....) to establish programs for low income working poor people. For example, if a working poor person gets a job, give the person a micro-loan to purchase those things needed for work and sustenance at a low interest rate secured by the job. Today some people can get a job but then can not afford to actually get to work.

    Heart and sole: Detroiter walks 21 miles in work commute

    There is a better way for people like Mr. Robertson. Liberals give lip-service to the real needs of people.


    Obama touts consumer watchdog's plans to regulate payday loans| Reuters

    It is not perfect and may not go far enough, but far better than nothing.[/quote]
     
  10. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Ace, while some of your policy suggestions may be interesting, that is not the issue, at least until you become an elected official and political leader of the Republican party. Where are Congressional Republican proposals on child care, payday loans, etc.

    The party that proposes little or nothing, but simply criticizes while refusing to compromise. It applies to most policy issues currently on the political agenda -- health care reform, immigration reform, budge reform, energy/environmental management...
    --- merged: Apr 7, 2015 at 12:38 PM ---
    added:

    Boehner cant begin to build broad national consensus on any issue, given that he is constantly facing an insurrection from the Tea Party wing of his own party.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2015
  11. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina

    Will it continue - Yes. Why would it stop? In the age of technology the value of labor is decreasing (restating the obvious). We can even look at a boring industry like farming. Today with GPS technology they do not even need a human to drive a tractor! The profits of the farm goes up the value of labor for people who drive tractors goes down.

    People are foolish to think the trend in the declining value of labor in general is going to reverse. Today it is about the value of creativity and intellect. People who depend on wages for their labor are going to be lucky to keep pace with inflation.
     
  12. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Care to look at some active policies of leading Republican governors running for president (Walker, Jindal).

    Take a look at their failed economic policies of tax cuts and the impact it has had on their state budgets.
     
  13. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I do not accept your premise. You do not seem to understand how real change can occur. The first step is to recognize a problem...at some point a coalition has to be built. I am suggesting to you or anyone else with a sincere interest in helping working poor people is that there is a problem and there is a potential coalition. On that basis anything is possible.

    You seem to be stuck in an ideological rut. Something far to common coming for DC, 'we can;t because "they" (are against)(will never)(are anti this or that)(are the enemy)(can't be trusted)(are in it for political reasons)(are fake) or as you put it above not a so-called political leader.

    I think the future is in anti-establishment candidates getting into office, Rand Paul for example.
    --- merged: Apr 7, 2015 at 12:52 PM ---
    Timing is important in these matters. Perhaps you may want to look at the Chicago budget or the state of Illinois budget, perhaps the situation in California. When a Republican governor comes in and manages a state out of what is essentially bankruptcy (mostly due to pension obligations and the favored treatment of unions in exchange for votes/support) no doubt it is going to be painful.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2015
  14. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    The country was built on compromise and consensus building that Tea Party types now see as a sign of weakness. Ask Boehner.

    And in states like WI and LA are facing budget crises as a direct result of failed policies of Walker and Jindal respectively, and middle class families and working poor in those states are bearing the brunt of the impact because those governors refuse to budge from their rigid failed ideology.
     
  15. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Speaking of failed states, look at what has happened to NJ and Kansas because of the Republican governors and their policies there.
    By making massive cuts in revenue with giveaways to the rich both states are facing huge budget deficits and are having to make massive cuts to basic services that will hurt the common people.
    Here in Alaska the same thing is happening because the morons kept in place massive cuts to the oil companies taxes and now with the drop in prices the companies who promised they would reinvest in the state when it was put up for a vote, have decided to back down on that promise.
    So not only are we facing a huge deficit but the promised jobs aren't here either.
    So yeah, big business lies and trickle down is a lie.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Weakness is compromising one's principles. Being against wasteful government spending is not being against all government spending. Liberals often fail to see differences of this type.

    Perhaps you do not think financial rating agencies have credibility, if so perhaps we can discuss this further. Otherwise consider the chart below and overlay R's V. D's in state governments:

    [​IMG]

    Illinois has lowest credit rating of all 50 states | Illinois Policy | An independent government watchdog

    Some states have been downgraded since this chart was made, but I think the point is clear.

    And here is some info on what Rahm Emanual, (Obama's guy) in Chicago is facing:

    UPDATE 1-S&P warns of Chicago rating downgrade without pension fix| Reuters
    --- merged: Apr 9, 2015 at 5:14 PM ---
    Your statement is flawed. First it is not clear what various people refer to when they say "trickle down" - but assuming it is related to big business (or the rich) spending or reinvesting tax savings from tax cuts here is one logical problem: why would government spending trickle down be true while big business spending trickle down would be false?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2015
  17. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Considering that NJ had a AAA rating when Christie started having a AA- isn't so hot.
    Brown has improved California's the past two years.
    Alaska doesn't have a Republican governor, he's an independent with a Democrat for a lieutenant.
    WTF are they blaming the state of Illinois rating on the mayor of Chicago when the governor is a Republican?
    Interesting also that Minnesota with a Progressive Democrat as governor is higher rated than Wisconsin with the Koch brother funded Republican
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Did Reagan compromise his principle's by working in a bi-partisan manner on reforming Social Security as opposed to allowing a private option as was his principle? On signing an UN treaty on ozone depletion,as opposed to his principles of reducing environmental regulations. On raising taxes?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Manny large areas of California is dessert. Periods of drought occur on a regular basis. California has not built a new water reservoir in over 40 years. California is on borrowed time, they have psotponed investing in what is needed for frivolous things. The people in the state will pay a hefty price for mismanagement:

    Brown would love to use global warming as an excuse, but can't:

    Feds: Don't Blame California Drought on Global Warming | NBC 7 San Diego
    Chicago has its own problems. The current Illinois governor took office in January, the previous two where Democrats. Even when the state was lead by Republican governors the state has had a Chicago v. rest of the state problem with unions having way too much influence and now the state is in trouble.

    In my travels I have always enjoyed the people and the state of Minnesota - they seem to have a good balance of liberalism and conservatism.
    --- merged: Apr 13, 2015 at 5:31 PM ---
    There are two principles in play regarding this issue.

    One is fulfilling our national commitment to individuals depending on and expecting social security. I hold this principle as well and I would support doing what needs to be done to make sure we fulfill our commitment.

    Two is establishing an alternative to social security or privatizing it for future generations of Americans. Young American will be better off under a privatized system. America will be better off going to a privatized system.

    You consistently fail to recognize that being against bad regulation is not the same as being against all regulation. Being against excessively high taxation is not the same as being against all taxation. Reagan was not an anarchist. Perhaps, his use of rhetoric is confusing to some:



    The above was somewhat satirical or poking fun at the liberal big government point of view.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2015