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Job Stablity Versus Savings

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by ASU2003, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    In terms of the economic recovery and how people feel about the economy, does the ability to keep a good job, and have a good expectation that it will be a long-term job mean more than having a higher income and saving more money? But, that higher income job might not be there 6 months from now, and you are only able to save a year or two of expenses before you are broke and poor...

    How long could you last if you had to cover the mortgage, property taxes, utilities, health insurance, car insurance, and all the other bills you might have if you didn't have a steady income just on your savings? Would you see your savings dwindling and get freaked out?

    Compare that to a job like a teacher or dentist who knows pretty much what their income will be for the next decade. Once they get the job, they know they will have the job for as long as they want to work. With this type of job security, they could save up for a nice vacation, a car they can take a car loan out on, and a house that is great.

    As to the broader economy and recovery, do we worry that this type of crash might happen again? That it is still happening in Spain and Greece, so it is possible to happen here since not too much has changed except for the $7 trillion more in debt that we are and the increased debt payments that our taxes go towards? That 'Main Street' isn't seeing the same types of income raises and employment numbers that it would like to see? That it is still hard to find a 'good' job with benefits, even though I don't know if that is true or not. If you could easily find a new job in one month, you wouldn't have to worry so much about going through your savings. Wouldn't that make people more encouraged by the recovery?
     
  2. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    This is so totally untrue. Teachers can be laid off just as much as anyone else. Sometimes it's bit by bit--.25 FTE here, .33 FTE there, and before a teacher knows it, they're working half-time. It depends on a school's budget and funding levels. Last year, the school I was at let go of one teacher, shifted one to another school, and cut another to .25 FTE. The school I'm at right now cut three teachers down to .5 FTE. For younger teachers in particular, there is very little job security. By younger, I mean the person lowest on the totem pole--in my current district, two of the teachers who got cut to half-time are both in their late 30s with families and thought they had secure jobs, but they're third in their department behind older men on the verge of retirement. It's seriously fucked up. We should be offering early retirement to teachers at the top of the salary schedule, but instead, we cut the FTE of the teachers who are lower down.
     
  3. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    OK, teachers used to be a good example. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Even dentists can have issues with income (despite it usually being high compared to the average). They're like small business owners. Their income is only as healthy as their practice. Consider issues like capital purchases for new equipment, expenses related to new procedures, increasing staff costs, etc. Now consider client turnover.

    I think with very few exceptions, "job security" is a myth perpetuated by the golden age of work: mostly pre-'80s.

    The only real job security anyone really has is what's between their ears.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Stan

    Stan Resident Dumbass

    Location:
    Colorado
    I've been laid off by both IBM (30 yrs) and AT&T (5 yrs). In my personal opinion, job security no longer exists.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    At times, there may be a price to be paid for higher incomes in your field.

    You're more of a target when cutbacks happen.
    More results are expected out of you.
    More hours are expected out of you.
    More burden is placed on your back.
    and so on...

    There is something to be said for not attempting to be ahead of the bellcurve on wages, at times.
    People and companies don't pay for how hard you work but what they don't know or can't deal with...
    But if they do pay you more...they expect more work and intensity anyway.

    Myself and others I know, take a wage at this time that is lower than what we could push for.
    However, other things come into consideration.
    Stability...comfort...convenient hours...a slower pace...etc.
    At times in your life, you don't want to "live" the job...but the job just "is"
    ...and your investment is into yourself, your time and your family.

    I've done both approaches...it depends on where you are in life...everyone's situation is different.
    Sometimes you push the line, sometimes you chill.
     

  7. excuse my ignorance, but whats an FTE?

    i guess things depend on where you are in your life. as a single person, i wouldnt have cared, and would have wanted a higher salary at the expense of the risk of job security.

    as a married person, job security became more important for me and i was looking for a long term role.

    but now with 2 kids, i'm willing to take a risk and start my own business so that i can provide for my kids something that i couldnt otherwise provide if i was in a cruisy/safe job.

    risk vs reward. take a choice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    FTE stands for full-time equivalent. If you're at 1.0 FTE as a teacher, that means you're working a full contract--180-190 days, 8 hours a day. Obviously, many teachers put in more hours than their contract says they have to, simply because that's the nature of the job.

    Full-time equivalent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  9. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    The market is changing. In the past more so than now, the trade-off of security to income was difficult. Security has little value in today's market place. I encourage people I know to consider themselves "free agents". An easy comparison is with the movie industry. Get the job knowing it won't last, get the best deal possible, build lasting relationships while on the job, enjoy the final product and move on to the next project. If there is a sequel, great!

    Think of what is happening to the parent company of Blackberry, in the news today. Who would have thought that when President Obama said they would have to pry his Blackberry from his hand about 5 years ago, the company would be on the brink of being out of business! Same could be true of almost any company in the next 5 years.
     
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    This is what I've started telling people. It's a trend that's been building for years now. Young people especially will need to get used to the idea that they're likely to work as contract workers and/or freelancers, rather than permanent full-time workers. It depends on the industry and the role. With the kind of work I do, many companies can't afford to hire me full-time to do the kind of work I do, because they don't all have 40 hours of workload every week. So they hire people like me who bill them by the hour. This kind of thing is becoming more prevalent.

    It goes to show that you need more than a good product to be successful. The same thing happens in publishing. It doesn't matter how good the book is; it comes down to marketing and marketability.
     
  11. amonkie

    amonkie Very Tilted

    Location:
    Windy City
    There's no such thing as true stability anymore, at least to the old standards from the 60's-70's of 1 job then retirement - anyone who thinks that is in for a very painful awakening.

    My husband and I are currently a mixed household - I am working a traditional job as W2 employee, for the precise reason that we know we have a paycheck coming in on X days. My husband is self employed, and it is the hardest thing ever. When it pays off, the rewards are great and the money he brings in is great. However, he is busting his butt EVERY SINGLE DAY and there are factors beyond his control, including seasonal lulls. It takes its toll on people, especially relationships. We feel it is a worthwhile risk though, because long term we hope to build it up to bigger point. He's been self employed full time for 2.5 years.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Stan

    Stan Resident Dumbass

    Location:
    Colorado
    I compete with an army of folks in India and elsewhere that will work for 20% of what I make. You can hire 3 folks in India to replace me and pocket the difference. Or you can hire someone that works the same hours that you do, speaks English as a primary language, will stay around longer than the training period, and has a US work ethic.

    It feels like a pendulum that swings both ways. I've been outsourced twice now, yet I'm back where I started. Obviously, IBM feels I'm worth what they are paying; on the other hand, I am a contractor, this time around, rather than an employee.
     
  13. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I know every situation is different, I am not making a judgement on how others do things. I just share my experience.

    In 1999, my wife and I risked all our savings to buy a business. I was going to leave my corporate job, she was going to keep hers, I was going to run the business. Then before we even got started a change in plans. She would leave her job and I would leave mine. We looked at each other and decided we were going to be "all in" or nothing. If we failed it would be as a team and if we made it, it would be as a team. During bad times and good, she was there. She could see what we needed to make the business a success. She could see what the sacrifices were for. She could see when things started to turn. And given her personality compared to mine, we were better as a team. I would not do it any different in hindsight. I trusted her like I could trust no other, and I thing she would say the same about me. I can not imagine what the pressures would have been, if she was not involved.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    True, when I was working last year...90+ hours...any day, any time.
    Not only my responsibilities, but communication, special projects (internal & external) and managing others too...
    They were trying to incorporate China into our over-night shifts...and it just wasn't working.
    They'd call me at a drop of a hat, couldn't think outside the box...and god-forbid you asked for hours outside the core.
    I got the same with a team in Brazil...for another company.

    It was frustrating, I didn't get how they couldn't get it...and bring the same intensity.
    That was the pattern I saw, they were intelligent with set skills...just not flexible and had a hard time with new things.
    I hope others have experienced something else.

    Now, I'm in a more structured position...less operations, more creative & analytical.
    I can't tell you how nice it is to not be called after core hours, they don't think of it...but I wouldn't hesitate if needed...just not always.
    Now my hardest thing is bring an old-school mindset into the year 2013...letting them know the world is round...and dealing with the resistance.

    But I will tell you this...I've made myself a commodity...worked my ass for it.
    I have to trust my company and its leadership & my boss. A company has to invest into me, as I do into it.
    And that doesn't exist as much as it used to...so you have to look out for yourself.
    That's why I live in an area with options...lots of options in my field.

    Because life is too short to have to deal with someone you don't trust.
    And if I don't trust you, I don't deal with you.
    Find another sucker.
    The sense of trust and commitment, this is my stability.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  15. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I always felt I had a fairly high level of job security, but I entered the workforce at a different time. When I started public interest work in the 80s, there was so much federal grant money and foundation money available that one just went from grant to grant with no worries. And, the public interest group subculture within the non-profit community is so incestuous, it was easy to move from organization to organization (and move up) if one had any credibility at all.

    Before the funding dried up by the late 90s and going into turn of the century (makes me sound really old), experience took over and I had opportunities to move from grant-funded to more secure organizationally funded positions and experience took over and by then, much like rogue, I feel like I was a proven commodity. We laid off a number of staff just a month ago, but I never felt threatened given that I know the value I bring to the organization both in terms of revenue and programs.

    And through it all, I saved, with matching funds from the organization(s) going towards retirement. I never expected to get rich, but I could quit tomorrow and live comfortably until retirement age, but I would be bored to death.

    I know that those just entering the workforce today or those early in their careers are dealing with a much more difficult scenario.
     
  16. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    But, I think security does have a value in today's economy. And I would argue that the lack of security is one of the reasons people don't feel good about this current economy, and why people aren't willing to use loans to buy vehicles, remodel homes, or be able to take a long vacation.

    I will agree that it isn't all on the employee side of the board. Lots of companies are having a hard time surviving, and there is no job security if your business or employer fails.
     
  17. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I agree. I think the value has diminished. There are two sides, I would love to have security and I would give up X for it, but you need the otherside someone who wants X and can provide the security. We have fewer willing to exchange security for X and fewer who can even offer security. The potential problem for many people is that they may enter into a situation where they think they are in a fair exchange of giving up X for security only to find the other party could not really offer any security - they end up sacrificing X and not getting security.

    There needs to be a paradigm shift in the way people look at this. Once the sift occurs we will be back on track.
     
  18. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Ace...you know what just might provide security for a young person new to the workforce?

    Heath insurance! Now that affordable insurance is available for those young workers who might still be looking for a job or in a job w/o insurance. Or those young workers, some maybe just starting a family, and have insurance provided by employer and will know that they and their spouse or future kids will never be excluded because of a pre-existing condition and will never face bankruptcy as a result of a medical catastrophe with lifetime limits now prohibited. :)

    The health care paradigm shift as a result of the ACA!
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  19. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    Yes, there does need to be a different way of thinking about it, but that is what I am going through right now. I have worked 10 straight years and if I lost my job, I would be able to cover 3-4 years of expenses until I am right back to where I was before I started working, except with a few more toys.

    Now, if I was able to sell my house and not have to worry about a mortgage payment, city taxes, HOA fees, and utilities...I might be able to survive a little longer, but I don't think I could make it to retirement like that, nor would I want to have to rent a place once I am that old for the rest of my life.

    What doesn't exist is a $20,000 house that doesn't take much to heat or cool it. The paradigm shift isn't just going to happen on the worker side, it will need to happen on the livability side as well. Monthly fees and borrowing large amounts of money are the killer.

    *I thought of some positions that offer more stability yesterday. Jobs like firemen and paramedics would be stressful while at work, yet if you can perform at the level needed, then there probably aren't too many layoffs and downsizing events occurring.
     
  20. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Under Obamacare some people can get health insurance for about $100/month. In many areas they could get health insurance for about $100/month before obamacare. Under Obamacare the $100 plan in many areas has very restrictive healthcare options - this had to be done to keep the cost down. In many situations an arbitrary cutoff means a small difference in income can be a large difference in out of pocket cost. In order for older people under Obamacare to have guaranteed insurability and affordable premiums, young people have to subsidize the costs. There are better ways to address healthcare reform.
    --- merged: Sep 30, 2013 at 5:25 PM ---
    A growing, healthy business would love to hire you and people like you. A growing healthy, business in a stable and predictable economy would want to keep you and people like you employed and pay accordingly. As you have suffered so has many businesses. A business has to operate in a very competitive environment, often where customers will go else where to save a few pennies - business operates with less security as well. Regulations are often stifling - everyone telling a business owner how to run their business - everyone assuming a business is a bottomless pit of money. Sure, you don't want to hear about the difficulties of business owners - but many are suffering as you have or worse.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2013