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Males, being male and the aspects of it, good and bad

Discussion in 'Tilted Life and Sexuality' started by rogue49, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    I'm creating this thread for housekeeping purposes.
    And to allow those who want to express themselves on men or being male
    without interfering with the similar thread on females.

    There is value to both sides and all contexts.
    And I want everyone to be comfortable sharing their time being a guy. ...or relating to guys.
    And a better place to debate this aspect with those who want to give opposing views.

    This is not to say one is better than the other.
    Just a different focus and perspective.

    Women are welcome to ask questions on what it is to be a guy from men.
    Both men and women are welcome to oppose anything that may be said.
    I'd like to encourage participation from all sides.

    Hopefully we can do this calmly without pissing off anyone too much.

    ------

    Now...the only thing I know in life, is being a guy.
    I was not raised with a primary man around...mostly it was women.
    My mother was here, my father wasn't...and there weren't any substitutes.

    The only tip I got from my father growing up, was when I was 14, "remember son...always the clit."
    Then he took me to a peep show in NYC.
    Otherwise, nothing...no participation, no money...just rumors of what he was doing.
    Only other men were my mom's father...who was emotionally unavailable or my uncles who weren't really there full time either.

    My whole world was my mother and my sister.
    Most of my teachers and the rest of surroundings were ladies.
    She taught me most of my values and perspectives.
    And I was incredibly lucky...in hindsight I got the best parent in the world. I'm biased...but I've also compared over time...vs both men & women.
    She did what she could with what she had...and what she knew.

    But this did not mean I still didn't have the feelings of being a man...and a hetro-man at that.
    So most of my late youth and early adult years was trying to figure that out.

    How the fuck to deal with this desire that I had to most women.
    How the fuck to compete and relate with other men.
    I had no reference, no mentor.

    That's an intro...anyone else? I don't want to dominate...this isn't a thread about me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
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  2. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    LOL - It seems that all the men had more than enough to say in the FFF thread...but don't have anything for here, so far...

    Typical guys. Always going where all the gals go.
    No wonder we have to pay for the club entries... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
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  3. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    Pay for club entry? Pfft. I always go on gentleman's night.
     
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  4. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    When I take a break from being a notorious Muslim rapist, I like to think of myself as a pretty decent person as far as treating all sexes/genders/orientations as Freestanding Human Beings (TM). But this isn't about me; no, it's about Manly Men.

    ...

    I think the difficulty of this thread and any thread that deals with gender identity, sex roles and similar is that it basically boils down to the following: The world is too big, too diverse for [____] to talk about being [____] without causing a hissy fit.

    The other issue is that we've got a bunch of guys sitting around defining what it is to be a man without having actually done anything that fits into the shit stereotype. Heh, it's hard to thump your chest as an assistant manager at a fucking Staples, people.

    In the confines of middle class white American males? Yeah, I know what it is to be a man. I was a motherfucking paratrooper and the rest of you spineless fucks can take your soft palms and high brow careers and shove them up your skinny jean'd asses.

    *flips desk, sets the trash can on fire, tears a phone book in half, crushes a cheap American beer can on his forehead, fixes the A/C vent fan in a Toyota Corolla without removing the dash, does 25 hang pullups, palms your woman's crotch on the way out*

    Stuff like that.

    If you'll excuse me, I've got do the laundry and make dinner for my woman.

    ...

    If you're afraid to talk about "traditional male roles" and the related skill set and yet have none of that expertise, maybe you should reevaluate things. Or date a woman that can bench 225 and knows how to change a tire.

    ...

    There isn't anybody I'd want to fuck on TFP so that basically leaves everybody here in two categories:

    1. People I want to drink with
    2. Assholes that should get bent
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
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  5. GeneticShift

    GeneticShift Show me your everything is okay face.


    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Stan

    Stan Resident Dumbass

    Location:
    Colorado
    That's pretty much what happened to my career without your help.

    I have no clue what it means "to be a man". I'm still working on "don't be an asshole" (unsuccessfully, at times).
     
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  7. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    *notices you in the kitchen* Take your goddamn shoes off. And I better not catch you voting in there.

    ...

    I can't hear you over the sound of how many brown people I oppressed while I was busy being a capitalist baby-killer.

    I'd argue that--based on your blog posts--you're more of a man than most of the dipshits here, myself included.
     
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  8. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    Things that are good about being a man? To me, just about everything. Some things dictated by society which is often unfairly skewed to benefit men. There is the basic genetic stuff like being predisposed to more muscle and height and all that jazz too. There are outliers for all of that, and I can't take credit for any of it since I didn't even know I was racing the other sperm at the time.

    It's cool to be able to stand up and pee at the drop of a zipper and not to have a period. I'm a big fan of my lot in life in that department.

    If we are talking about what it means to be a guy, I guess that it differs by who you ask and who you interact with. Nobody has paid me to jump out of a perfectly good plane, or to run around in the desert with a gun looking for guys who aren't white, but I think I've done some other pretty manly stuff. I've swapped engines in a car, torn the shingles off of a roof and replaced it, chopped down a tree with an ax, changed a hot water heater, and killed/cleaned/cooked my own dinner all in the same day.

    But if you ask me what it REALLY means to "be a man", it has less to do with those skills and more to do with how you treat other people. To me it includes a lot of things that fall under "being a quality human" more than "being a man". Treat other people how you'd want to be treated. Not resorting to physical violence or verbal abuse when you are angry or things don't go your way. Being able to make a kid like you and want to spend time with you. Making others around you feel safe simply because they are in your presence without having to run your mouth or walk around glaring at everyone to convince them how tough you are. Calling your mom randomly to say hello just because you know she likes to hear you are alive. Visiting the old family friend who is dying of cancer even though you know you don't have anything to say and can't make them better. Standing up for what is right even when it's unpopular or you know it'll cost you time/money. Sending your S/O flowers on a random Wednesday just because you know they are having a bad day. To me, that's what being a man means.
     
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  9. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
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  10. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Well, I don't know it's about being a "manly" man...let's not push it that way.

    It's about how you define yourself as a man in this day & age...or even in times in the past.

    Perhaps what you had to grow up with. Was there a time where you had to figure it all out?
    Good things, bad things...conflicts, absurd things.

    How do you relate to other men? How do you relate to women?
    Do you think men are treated unfair in some things? Not equal? Or have an advantage?

    Is there something currently now that you are experiencing where the system/society is burdening you?
    Things that you burden yourself with...that you think you have to do?

    I'm sure we can all account for some "manly" aspect...so this is not a competition. (a typical man thing. ...says the Martial Art instructor. ;))
    It's a consideration.
    Sharing (ooo...so unmanly)

    BTW...interesting links @Plan9
     
  11. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    I define myself as a man mostly by stuff like I posted in the last paragraph of post #8.

    Growing up I had a decent to good relationship with my dad. My parents were married at 18 and had me 18 months later, so (now that I look back) he was still kind of figuring it out as he went along too. I definitely see the way my dad was in my later teen years as being a better person than he was when I was a little kid, for lots of factors. Not that he was a bad guy, he has just gotten better as he's went through life. So having a good example was a positive IMO.

    I relate well to most men as far as meaning I can understand them, converse with them, or get along. I can be dropped into almost any social setting or group and do just fine. However, I do think a bunch of men, maybe most, are whiners and weenies. Not because they can't gut a deer, ride a motorcycle, or frame a house, but because they are pusillanimous (look it up, great word, one of my favorites). They don't stand up for what they believe in, speak up for what they want or how they feel, or won't directly address life in general. They are great at talking or doing things behind others' backs, or telling everyone what awesome thing THEY would've done in that situation (that they really never would've had the hangy-down parts to do), or are willing to intimidate and pick on those physically weaker than them or who they otherwise have authority over. I have no respect for "men" like that.

    I think I relate well to most women too. I think I come across as genuine, and I think that is appreciated. I try to be a good listener and I'm not afraid to talk about my own feelings. Those are generalizations, and it could be perceived by some to be sexist to follow that up with "and women like that", but I think it is true. My female friends appreciate that about me, or seem to. Many confide in me, and I think those are big reasons why.

    Men are sometimes treated unfairly, but I think that is true of almost any group to an extent, and men have enough advantages that it more than makes up for the times we are treated unfairly IMO.

    Society doesn't burden me. I refuse to let it. I think I have good standards and ideals that I live by. Where they disagree with portions of society I am okay with that.

    And yes, there are things I burden myself with to "be manly" at times. Sometimes I wish I could throw a temper tantrum and throw and break stuff to vent my anger. Not often, but sometimes. I don't think that is a very manly thing to do though, because it would scare my wife to death and that's not very loving to do. Sometimes I wish I could just take a time out from life, enjoy a couple months of doing nothing, and shirk all my responsibility. But again, I think part of "being manly" is being responsible in life, so I don't. I don't think it makes me some superman for refusing those urges. I think it makes me a decent human. *shrug*
     
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  12. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    I read the article up there about needing the approval of women and through the entire thing I am thinking, 'yes, exactly, that is what I no longer want.' Yet, I am a woman and am applying it to men. I don't want to feel like I need anyone's approval to say whatever I need to say, either. So, I would just like to reiterate that nothing I ever posted on my 'females' thread was meant to be a global indictment of men. But after reading that article I can see how these kinds of observations can get skewed and lose their original meaning. Particularly, if you're a member of one group or another who doesn't want to have attributes pinned on your person that you feel (happily) liberated from. I would like to think that everyone here can understand that very simple premise and, you know, give each other the benefit of the doubt. I think the number of people here who have true gender hatred are very few. If we can share ideas like these, realize that what we are saying is 'hey, this is my experience and it really doesn't have anything to do with you directly,' respect the fact that their experience is valid and not get so bent out of shape about it we might be able to get some cross-gender conversations going on here. Or, conversely, we can continue reacting, denying each other our experience of things and getting all huffy and talking past each other. That's what I have to say about that.
     
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  13. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Yeah? Well I'm a goddamn state trooper. Yesterday I covered a crash where the guy wrecked and left the scene to hooters to get beer to cover up his dui. So I hit him with hit and run, enough points to take his license twice over. Then while back at the scene three shots were fired less than a hundred yards away at a shitty apartment complex. So the other trooper and I hustled over and called the deputies. Spent time looking for that. End of the night was covering a crash in an icy bridge. Rolled his suv twice, dog ran away. Covered the crash, helped recover his dog that only approached me (dog didn't want to be sweet talked over, it wanted me to tell it to get in the damn car! It needed someone to tell it what to do.) And then went to the hospital and watched them use sixteen staples to secure his scalp above his ear. Got home at 0430 with 1.5 hours of overtime.
    What I love about my job is taking responsibility. Making decisions. Learning to be in charge. Finally feeling like a man. And I talk to everybody. Suspects, victims, other law enforcement officers. But when its mu scene, its ultimately my decision.
    And I don't mean a power trip. Every decision I make can be scrutinized under the state agency I work for and also the entire legal justice system, including whether I might have violated someones constitutional rights. Ao having that responsibility is huge, but I finally feel like I'm doing something with my life. Reference my post footer.
     
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  14. curiousbear

    curiousbear Terse & Bizarre

    I want to be careful in my post. Will do it.
     
  15. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    I like being a guy. I also like being true to my ideals, thoughts and feelings. Personally, I don't think I'm all too manly, whereas others would describe me as a stereotypical macho dumbass male. Though I suspect my Middle Eastern-ness is skewing my image and has been for a long time.

    Since my early teens I was fortunate enough to have been in the "tall" category, with wide shoulders and fairly built legs, so I didn't have to deal with being bullied. For most of my life, I simply wanted to be "nice" to people and I have a tremendously large supply of being genuinely interested in getting to know others. Often my level of interest is not taken seriously, for which I blame society teaching its members to be apathetic towards others, and to consider "unwarranted" and sudden interest in their person as suspicious.

    I was never the anti-social type and always had a knack for making acquaintances/friends, but my being a man has often been a stumbling block in my ability to attain what I sought most for a long time: Deeply loyal and trusting relationships. Fortunately, I'm a bit of a numbnut so people rejecting my emotional approaches never hindered me from putting myself out there again until I found people I clicked with.

    It's a shame that many guys have been brainwashed by society to completely repress their wants and feelings, and I had to witness it over and over again with (whom I then considered) some of my very best friends from childhood. I can fully understand why they turned out that way. As children, they are told to "act like a man" and to stop communicating their concerns and wants. As teenage guys, if they make the mistake to open up and share things that truly bother them, they will almost always be bullied into mental submission by their equals and their peers (both male and female).

    There are many areas that I believe are in urgent need for reform (especially in schools) so that boys can naturally grow to become their own men in a society that frowns upon boyish behavior and treats them as defective girls, without being emotional cripples who can only communicate in grunts and bizeps contractions, or have to turn into emos to find an acceptable emotional outlet.

    Regardless, I don't consider myself anywhere near a typical male. This is rooted in the fact that as a child I had the disadvantage of not having my parents (especially my father) around much at all because they very often had to work from early morning until very late into the night to keep the business afloat and stable, and what little attention they could spare usually went to my sister, so more often than not I ended up without a male role model. Most of the things I learned as a boy, I learned from watching other boys and their families in school or when over at their places. There were some awkward times when 7/8/9-year old Remixer was attached to other people's parents more than he should've been.

    Also, because I didn't build much of a connection with my parents in childhood, I am still on awkward terms with my parents. In recent years I have connected a lot with my father and he has been a great mentor, while my relationship with my mother is pretty frosty (there are some fundamental issues with her behavior and the way she treats other people that we haven't been able to reconcile).

    All of this made me feel emotionally inadequate throughout most of my childhood and subsequent puberty, but I think I reached a good place a couple years ago and am enjoying being my dumbass self.

    Society affects my behavior very little, and only in matters where I have to take political ramifications of certain actions/statements into account.

    Generally, I have no thoughts on what "being a man" entails. I think there are many ways to be one. I consider myself a man, nothing more.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
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  16. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    I don't really care what it means to "be a man". I suppose there was a time where I struggled with the question, but it just became tiresome.

    I just try to do the right thing and not worry about meeting other people's expectations.

    That said, I don't live in a vacuum and I do, like everyone else, react and see myself in relation to others (and Others).

    Nothing is as simple as we would like it to be...
     
  17. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    I guess I like being a man. I don't really have anything else to compare it to, since I've always been a man....

    I'm sure there are societal benefits I have reaped from being a dude, but I'm not sure I've been aware of them. They've probably also been eroded a bit by being overweight, geeky, introverted, and Jewish.

    I like my penis pretty well. Wish it were a bit bigger. But pretty happy having it. I use it a lot, and I am very satisfied with its performance. Never really wanted anything else in its place, though most probably if I were a woman, I'd like my vagina and clitoris just as much....

    Definitely like girls a lot, but that's not really a man thing, since I could just as easily have been a woman and been a lesbian. Kinda went in that direction anyway, what with social activism, feminism, listening to Indigo Girls and Sarah McLachlan and so on....

    Despite being a feminist, I do tend to relate strongly to elements of chivalry, being a gentleman, living by a code of honor, etc.

    Nonetheless, I don't have much patience for machismo and lots of mainstream "male" identity crap, and in my opinion, a staggeringly high proportion of other dudes are dicks.

    I dunno. In a weird way, I just don't think of "manliness" or "masculinity" as core foundations of my identity. I don't think of "femaleness" or "femininity" as part of my identity in any major way, either. I just tend to think of myself in relation to different definitions-- not of gender or sex identity, I am definitely a male masculine man, and am contented as such. But rather that before anything else, I might think of myself as a Jew, an American, a human being, a scholar, an artist, a teacher, etc.

    That said, I definitely have clear ideas about being a man, and as a comparatively new father (Little Levite is turning one year old tomorrow!), I do think a lot about what I want to pass on to my son about being a man. A lot of it is Jewish-oriented, but what isn't is mostly about responsibility, self-integrity, being true to yourself, being self-reliant but not afraid to ask for help when needed and take it when it's offered, being respectful to all and especially to women, being a good listener, being compassionate to others, and seeking to make the world a more just place.
     
  18. arkana

    arkana Very Tilted

    Location:
    canada
    Power aims to normalize the things that perpetuate itself. Since they're so normal, it's harder to notice them. That's why we're having so much trouble stating what our masculinity is about. How many of the positives we are describing are aspects of what makes a good human? What's left after that?
     
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  19. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    I am not convinced these two positions are mutually exclusive. While there has been a trend in feminism to get upset if a man holds the door open for a woman, etc. I think that is more of a reaction to breaking down cultural norms and a resentment of traditional roles. I think feminism has room for a multitude of points of view on this and many other subjects (i.e. feminism isn't the monolith and it has and will continue to evolve).
     
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  20. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    You know, I have yet to ever meet this feminist who gets upset at having a door held open for them. I suppose they exist, but I can't help but think they're part outlier and part myth carried out of the 1970s heyday of feminism - when feminists were trying to break all of the old rules. I've never had a problem with someone being kind to me.
     
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