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Politics National Traitors Day

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by redravin, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    Now is not then.

    A big issue of the time was not whether slaves could be kept in the existing states. That was settled. The question was whether slavery would be allowed in new states. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the ten rebelling states. Settled by Gens. Grant and Sherman in 1865.

    The issues of indivisibility of the Union and state's right right to leave were much less settled in 1861 than they are now. If Abraham Lincoln had just let them go, that would have settle the indivisibility issue. He chose to not let them leave and thus the issue was again finally settled by Generals Grant and Sherman in 1865.

    Sometimes progress needs to be made incrementally. If you had bundled decriminalization of homosexuality, homosexual freedom to marry, and ending slavery, all together in a referendum in 1861 it would have gone down to a crushing defeat.
     
  2. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    Actually, that might also be fair....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Street Pattern

    Street Pattern Very Tilted

    In 1861 America, there was very little concept of homosexuality. Yes, there were homosexuals, but very few people would have any idea what you were talking about.

    But even limiting the referendum to slavery, there would have been few "yes" votes.

    Historians estimate that the proportion of people in the North, before 1861, who were in favor of immediately ending slavery, without compensating slave-owners, was no more than about 1%.

    Immediate abolitionism was extreme radical fringe until the war got under way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Shadowex3

    Shadowex3 Very Tilted

    Or America and the Indians vs America and the Irish, Chinese, and Japanese...
     
  5. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Thank goodness that Karl Heinrich Ulrichs starting publishing his Research on the Riddle of Man-Manly Love in 1864.
     
  6. Street Pattern

    Street Pattern Very Tilted

    Well, thank goodness for a century and a half of advancing human knowledge and compassion since that time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    Didn't Churchill say something to the effect that "half the population doesn't think it can physically be done, the other half are doing it.?"

    That's what I meant by incrementally. Sometimes you can make more progress that way. We seem to have forgotten that. Now we expect huge fundamental changes in human behavior RIGHT NOW, and are then surprised that there is pushback.
     
  8. Shadowex3

    Shadowex3 Very Tilted

    I just googled that and I can't believe that's actually real, and the real title. I was CERTAIN you were joking. It probably helped that I read that as "manly-man love" instead of "man-manly love".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    First, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...it's a good looking and fun flag, some just like it just for itself. (and this is coming from a Yankee raised boy...personally I've always liked the South Korean flag)
    I think most show it for that reason.

    Second, some are just angry. Just looking to lash out at some outside target (at "those people")
    But this is likely the smallest group.

    Third, some like to identify with their area...culturally, regionally...like a friggin' baseball cap for "their" team.
    And people can get kind of possessive about their team. But this is not bad in and of itself, actually it's a nice flavor.

    I'm not going to stand here and call them traitors, not this many years later.
    However, I will call people on their bullshit...but I take this on a case by case basis.

    I hate for our tendency to lump things together.
     
  10. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    And sometimes that cigar is an exploding cigar.
    For all the folks who wear the Dixie/Rebel/Fuck You/I'm an Asshole Flag because they are Lynard Skynard fans ,just wanting to be cowboys, or showing their heritage, there are a dozen more who are standing by the side the side of road waving it at the folks who were marching from Ferguson to the capital (no where near the south last time I checked).

    So no I don't think it's the smallest group, or at least I think it has a good chance of being a pretty big piece of it.
    Yes, it is free speech and we can't get rid of it and that's not something I'd ever suggest.
    But making it clear that it represents a flag of traitors to the United States and everything it stands for would be nice.

    They can try to spin the story any way they want to but that's what it comes down to.
    I am sick and tired of the very same people who scream that Jane Fonda was traitor to the US because of her visit to Vietnam flying that flag or accusing accusing our current president the same way.
    --- merged: Apr 12, 2015 at 2:12 PM ---
    Another article that I think a lot of people don't realize about the history of the south.
    We are taught in school that the Civil war ended when Grant accepted Lee's sword at Appomattox and a lot of the history books teach about how Grant went into the South and was a terrible meanie.
    All about the carpet-baggers who came down and took advantage of Reconstruction etc.etc.
    What they don't talk about is there was still pockets of fighters who wouldn't surrender and how many people were killed for years after that.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/12/opinion/sunday/the-dangerous-myth-of-appomattox.html?smid=fb-share

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2015
  11. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & don't criticize. Donor

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    I'm noticing that a couple of TFPers who live in a "deep South" state haven't posted in this thread. And where's @pig when we need him?