need advice on a fight i had in a work meeting

need some feedback on something strange that happened today that hasnt occured to me in 14 years of my professional life.

i recently did some project management work for a builder, and today i was finalising of his subcontractors accounts, so i organised a meeting to close out the final costs with involvement from the builder and the subcontractor.

a bit of background information, the subcontractor was an excavation company who did some work, but was
a) really shit at his job and screwed he job up, and sub-subcontracted the job to someone else.
b) was late in commencing, delivering and finishing the project
c) failed to heed many of my direct instruction onsite
d) has no contractual understanding of his obligations, inclusions in the contract and simple arithmetics

thats just a quick background on this guys incompetance.

anyways, so i had this meeting, to discuss how much money he was owed. I calculated that after deducting his previous payments, the contracharges against his contract for costs to the builder, and deducting work not done under his contract that he was overpaid and he wasnt entitled to a penny.

about 15mins into the meeting the subcontractor blew up, slammed the table, and abused me verbally and threatened to fix me up good. Ititially i thought it was amusing, but when he became aggressive and came over the side of the table within inches of my face and threatening to hit me, i clicked, slammed the table and decided that the best form of defence was attack. i wasnt going to wait to get hit. so i charged at him and abused him and threatened to make mice of him. He was lebanese also, so most of the words flying off the cuff was colourful language in arabic. We were seperated within a few seconds, but he wanted to take it outside so i told him that i was more than happy to kick his ass outside...and we did, but the builder wouldnt let us go. all we got to was some pushing and shoving and some nose to nose sneering...

he still threatened to kick my ass by bringing his 7 brothers to fix me up tomorrow, so i told him to bring it on and i wasnt scared, but that i also had recorded the whole conversation ( i didnt but it sounded like a good idea at the time)

so he left in a fluster after telling me that he believes in jesus and i believe in muhammed and that he's right. I told him that the builder was buddhist and it doesnt really mean a thing what your inclinations were, and laughed in his face.

so this has me all confused. im not at all scared of this guy, maybe a bit scared of his brothers, but ill wait and see what happens i guess. id be more concerned for my family's well being than my own. im just a bit confused at how all this came about in the first place. i was never overly aggresive in my meeting, although he came to the meeting expecting nearly 30K and i had him owing us nearly 4K.

in all my years in this profession, in all my years working with many builders and contractors and developers,i never have i been in a fight close to this and im just confused at how i scooped so low and acted in the same way he did. ive never been an aggresive person, actually im quite passive, and ive only really clicked very few times in my life...this thing just leaves me scratching my head wondering how and why...

/still scratching...comments welcome to help me get over the head scratching

did i blow up unncessarily? should i have let him hit me? should i have clocked him one first?, should i even worry and just brush it aside? what if i came across this guy again? im sure he's reallllly pissed at me, enough for him to want to do something...

 

So... I was going to make a "damn those accurate stereotypes" joke but I guess it's too soon for that, huh?

...

Yeah, it's pretty clear that old boy went from professional grumblings to personal attack in a heartbeat and left you falling forward into his chest-thumping fifth grade bully trap. I know it's really hard to sit there and take that kinda shit from someone, especially when their job performance makes FEMA look like a well-oiled reaction machine, but sometimes you have be the adult even when nobody else is. The escalation of force in a conversation should never become personal in a business setting. If you must attack, attack the person's professional performance with hard facts.

The other option--one I exercise a lot in my business (waste management)--is basically grinning and nodding while they unload on you and then transcribing their rant and all the facts w/ evidence to their higher or other relevant party. You look like a bitch, but hey, that's life for most of us.

Either way, if you're actually thinking that this douchebag will make good on his ridiculous threats, you need to start a paper trail with someone in law enforcement. If not, just take it as rantings from a shitbag with a tiny dick who uses tactics popular with the crowd that steals lunch money.

Fighting solves everything. I really believe that. But it's how you fight in a situation that matters. Use the appropriate weapon at the right time.

...

Be honest: On a scale of 1-10, how satisfying would it have been to ram your fist into his stomach and break his goddamn spine?

 

i appreciate the honesty Borla. I wouldnt have it any other way,

to answer some of your questions,

actually, i meant mince, not mice. I was going to make mince of him...i verbally abused him in colourful lebanese arabic. basically that i was going to kick his ass.

you're absolutely right. I shouldnt have blown up, but the fact is that i did, and i cant change that fact. I would have been happy smiling at him from the otehr side of the table, but the second he came around and came without inches of my face i wasnt going to let some idiot touch me for the sake of sueing him or for showing restraint. im probably a foot taller than this guy, although i probably weigh at least 30-40kg less than him, so if he had swung he may have hurt me if he had a free swing. I wasnt going to allow that to happen. There was no doubt he was coming at me, and being passive was an invitation for him to hit me. i guess it comes down to whether i want to get hit or not.

i dont think i would have hit him first. its just a thought that ran through my head after the fact. i guess im more bewlidered that i lost it because its been a long long time since i totally lost it. like Plan9 said, its been since school days that i got into a scuffle, and thats what the lowest common denominator was today.

i dont know him well at all. we had some verbal arguments onsite where i threatened to recind his co ntract for default of contract due to non-performance, but never this bad. do i think he personally would hurt me? probably not one on one. im fitter stronger and more agile than him, but if his 7 brothers come along i probably dont stand a chance, no. is it a real threat? i hope not, but the excavation industry is full of dimwitted asses that i cant be so sure what he will or wont do really.

life changes? let me see...a change of country, change of house, new job, newborn child... stress?? nah!!!

 

Hah. I have those encounters at least once a month here in Afghanistan. It's become second nature for me to deal with idiots.

However, my response depends on the location you're in. A developed country with a highly-professional business setting, or the contrary? (Obviously I have no clue where you live).

In a developed country such as one in North America or Europe, I'd let him go stupid on me and give no reaction until one of the other meeting participants eventually intervenes. It leaves you as the much more professional and reliable party, especially in the eyes of your boss/higher-ups. If he punches you, all the better. You get to file a personal lawsuit, and maybe your company could take his company to court, ruin his name and get your money back.

In a place such as Lebanon/Afghanistan/other Middle Eastern, African and South&Central Asian country, I'd probably still let him punch me first, but in that setting I'd punch back. It depends on the culture. Here, it's acceptable to do that... maybe even encouraged by the peers. Over here, when someone attacks you and then loses the fight, they would be too ashamed to file a lawsuit anyway.

Essentially, though, a physical fight in the professional world is almost always never worth it. As the others have said, know which weapon to use in a given situation to win the war, not the battle.

Chances are, your boss sees you as a lesser employee/colleague, if not necessarily as a person. Could be wrong, though.

May be worth going out with your boss for a few drinks and getting his personal and professional views out of him.

 

Any one else in the meeting to witness what happened?

 

I find myself wanting to recommend a few chapters from Steven Pinker's book Better Angels of our Nature.

You felt threatened (perhaps justifiably) and lost your head, happens to everyone. I wouldn't be too upset about it, but don't indulge the guy any more. It's not worth it. Prepare to defend yourself, but no name calling or threatening. Just because somebody else is making an ass out of himself doesn't mean you should join him.

Basically, this is a zero sum game and, if this guy was the head of his outfit, he absolutely nothing to lose. You do. I think in almost any part of America you would be looking for a new job right now. If it were me I'd go talk to my boss before anyone else does (assuming you have a boss and they're going to find out), maybe offer to write a letter of apology and send it to the guy. What is most important is that it doesn't matter who was the bigger asshole or who deserved what - you have more important shit to take care of than your personal pride.

 

Hi

You've already got analysis of the event and guidelines for how to deal with similar situations in future.

I'll explore these aspects:
"i guess im more bewlidered that i lost it because its been a long long time since i totally lost it."
"Ititially i thought it was amusing, but when he became aggressive and came over the side of the table within inches of my face and threatening to hit me, i clicked,"

Let's first examine triggers in the outside world - what HE or someone might or might not DO .I'm reckoning his proximity could have triggered it. But I'd need to check: Has there been a time a person, while agressive, has got that close into your face but you have remained non 'reactive' ... ie, they've been fist waving up-close, but you haven't lost it. If so, then we need to explore further to identify the actual 'difference that makes the difference'.

Let's also examine triggers in your INSIDE world. "I clicked" is what you said. OK. Have you ever done 'clicking' before .... think of other times and places. Notice how they are similar and how they are different. The 'click' is arrival at some threshold or boundary: Up to 'click', you're being something .... as you approach 'click', something is shifting ..... just before 'click' ..... something kicks in. WHAT kicks in. As you remember, slowwwww tiiiiiime and find out what happens 'when' and what happens 'next' as you approach the critical threshold ... focusing forward and backward in time just before you lost it. It happens in various contexts. For example "Getting hungry and feeling that it's time to eat" reaches a certain point before you get up and go to the kitchen. Some people feel a little pang, then flash a picture of food, maybe talk tothemselves a bit 'hmmmmmm feeling hungry, maybe get some food', then maybe think of going in the kitchen to look in the fridge ... 'what have I got in there'? Losing control of ones temper is a different context, but includes the 'approach to threshold' phenomenon. You can think your way though how you lost it, in ways which will make it less likely in future.

Let's now examine a possible earlier build-up - I'm checking this bit with you: If you'd caught your sense of amusement and STOPPED IT ... choosing, rather to hold on to the Seriousness of each moment of that meeting, which was a culmination of weeks or months of bad blood, might you have been in better control of yourself, and more empowered as a professional Businessman?
I'll state my question differently: Did his making you amused make you drop your guard?
And differently again: Can you think of some moods and emotional states in which you KNOW you would never 'click'? That you might feel like you'd be reaching your limits, but your mood would be the right one to address the situation resourcefully? I don't necessarily mean 'Calm' states, because it's entirely right for you to be able to leap out of danger, and entirely right to be at the peak of alertness. Can you think of some moods and states which would make you most likely respond in ways which represent the best of who you are and choose to see yourself as?

I can make comments about the other guy's behaviour, but I remember that you're the important one here. That guy found your weak spot ... you might have thought you had the meeting sorted, to the extent that you knew he was NOT going to get his money, and you had the facts to prove why he should not. Heck ... you were even 'amused' as initial reaction to his building aggression. He just turned it all round. He got you to lose control. He won. No loss of honour on your part, except your status as a business person. You were up against a professional bullshitter. He's been refining his game most of his life. Get work, weave and manipulate around contracts, give bad service and Expect to be Paid ........ and have Plenty of Practice at the art of responding to people who won't pay him. And plenty of practice getting THEM to react to him in ways that lets him simply see THEM as the 'bad guys' ... thus preserving his sense of entitlement to do and expect to be payed as he sees fit. Ie, he's probably an expert at getting people to lose THEIR control. His ace in the hole was to get you to become amused. Once he'd got you to become amused, then he knew could take his gloves off and come round the table, and you'd have no adult resources.

That's why I ask if you think of moods and states that, if you'd been in them, you'd have responded differently to him?
If so, can you imagine someone else like him, but worse? A worst-case scenario.
And check and adjust to have a mood or state which remains solidly effective in that situation?

Again, I emphasise that this guy was a professional con-man. Very experienced at bait and switch (offers what's needed to get the contract to do the job ... but supplies something else) and a well-practiced adept at outrage and escalation when challenged. He's probably built and maintained his career on those skills.
If Mother Theresa had hired him, she's have kneed him in the goolies. And would have been like "WTF!!!" at herself. And the Pope would have been looking at her a bit sideways for a few years. That's the sad thing ... the bad'uns know how to bring out the worst in the good'uns, but it's the good'uns who lose credibility.

 

It's too bad that people can't have an honest and open conversation without resorting to violence when there are disagreements. This guy was totally in the wrong for getting upset and getting in your face, but threatening him back doesn't do anything but make the situation worse. Now, he's pissed and feels threatened, that's a place that is very difficult to get back from to a point of reasonable. As soon as he got in my face I would have declared the meeting over and got up and walked out. If he pursued it further I would have let the local police handle him.

With a new move, a new child, and a new house to say you're tense would be a gross understatement. Heck, one of those things alone can be enough to drive someone to madness, so all of them at once must be a joy.

I'm interested in hearing how this all turns out, hopefully peacefully, keep us updated.

 

All I've got to say is that letting the other guy throw the first punch doesn't mean you have to let that punch land... and if you keep your cool instead of dropping to his level then you're in a good position to rearrange the arm throwing that punch as legitimate self defense.

 

"Just break the wrist and walk away."

 

Ok, legal system aside:

You should have beat the tar out of him and laughed over his bleeding body....

He attempted to intimidate and physically dominate you so that he could get away with sub standard work. He should be held accountable in a way which he understands.


Real world where 'laws' and 'prison' have a real impact on how we behave: You should refrain from the extreme above, but that doesn't mean you need to be passive either.

If I ever thought someone was going to attack me, I would hit first and accept the consequences of whatever might follow. Otherwise, I would refrain from escalating the level of aggression while also refusing to back down. Think 'immovable object' rather than 'offensive weapon'.

If you were a perfect 'chess' player you would probably allow him to hit you so that you could have the *next* move, either physically or legally; however I don't think that is a particularly honorable solution. If you need to defend yourself then do so, but it is not 'manly' to bait someone else into a legally compromising situation.


All in all you did well, other than the fact you lost your temper.

مساء الخير

P.S. I spent a lot of time with some Lebanese contractors during the past year. They were great people to spend time with and their hospitality should not go unnoticed. But why do they seem to desire hamburgers more even than cigarettes?

 

would be nice to get an update from Lish just to know the brothers haven't jumped him in the parking lot

 

That's exactly why I haven't responded too, Lish.

 

Don't y'all go ninjaing nobody that don't need ninjaing.