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"Obama just may have lost the election": Losing the Catholic vote

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by Baraka_Guru, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. Offline

    the_jazz Accused old lady puncher

    Yes.
    Perhaps.

    Clearly your point of view does not encompass the reality of contraception and health care access in the US. Would you like specific examples?
  2. Offline

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm not going to get into it because it's irrelevant to the thread. Generally: There have been some pretty great things that have come about after beating it out of and wresting it away from those bureaucratic demons. He really tended to gloss over history quite nonchalantly in support of a generic idea, being free market economics. I know it's a talk show, but he left a lot out of the picture to make free market economics seem so pristine and divine.

    For some reason, you are concerned about poor people dying in bus accidents while being unable to see that many women struggle to pay for contraceptives.
  3. Offline

    Carbonic Getting Tilted

    Ace, you'd know the answer to that question had the Republicans allowed even just one witness to speak in defense of the Obama administration's policy today. Instead, it's a bunch of men and religious leaders, because they clearly have a better understanding of women's issues than, well, women.

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/166311/republican-hearing-contraception-no-women-allowed - There is a video here of the witness who was going to speak about the need for affordable contraception.

    If you'd prefer, this article includes a very brief text summary of that same witnesses remarks today, outside the hearing: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...aring-house-democrats-walk-out_n_1281730.html

  4. Offline

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Condoms are expensive and not available?
    --- merged: Feb 16, 2012 10:22 PM ---
    I think the best way to address the issue is for greater competition in the market or a true single payer system. I think every child have unconditional access to free comprehensive medical through teenage years including contraception and family planning services, regardless of the solution arrived at for adults. When a responsible parent is involved, that parent should be consulted. When the child lacks proper adult supervision, I think we should have an administrative (government) process in place to protect the child. For adults who need costly contraception services and products, and who are poor, I think there are ways to subsidize those products and services without forcing the Catholic Church or any specific institution form being directly involved. Fundamentally, healthcare is a private matter in my opinion, not an employer matter.

    You confuse my response to the problem as a lack of concern. Why not say you just disagree with my response rather than suggesting I don't care?
  5. Offline

    the_jazz Accused old lady puncher

    At times they are. And then there's the issue that condoms are birth control for men, not women. Female condoms are expensive and not readily available.

    The Pill has health benefits for some women besides birth control.
  6. Offline

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Church/faith based institutions need not be involved - that is my answer. If we want low cost contraception services, pills, devices, services we can either create an environment where the costs go down, or we (general society) can subsidize it. Every child can get a free education. Every person can drive on roads cheaply. We can do what we want to do, it is our choice - the church need not be involved.
    --- merged: Feb 16, 2012 10:33 PM ---
    Birth control pills range from $15 to $50 per month, and are easy to get. I guess problems are relative.
  7. Offline

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor

    Location:
    Toronto
    How could I know whether or not you cared? You seem to disagree (with or without evidence) that there are women who struggle to afford contraceptives. You did admit that problems are relative. Now I'm uncertain of your position.

    However, your mentioning that health care is a private matter is important. The employer should not be able to choose whether an employee be covered for health care deemed essential, whether from a health or a liberty perspective. Whether a woman uses contraceptives should be up to the woman. Women have a right to birth control. Women who find birth control unaffordable suffer.
  8. Offline

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I think contraception goods and services are affordable and accessible. Based on interaction here I now better understand that affordability is relative. There are things that can be done to lower the costs and price of contraception goods and services further.

    I would not expect others to pay for something on my behalf that they do not support. I think there is a role for government in this regard when the public good is in question.
  9. Offline

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Washington DC
    That, in effect, is what the compromise does. We subsidize it through the insurance companies that will pay it, rather than the institution.

    You mean a role for government like the $millions in funding to organizations like Planned Parenthood to provide contraception (and breast screening) services?

    Oh wait, you are opposed to that as well, if I recall.
  10. Offline

    roachboy Moderator

    ace, you don't have a defensible position. all you can say is that, based on your demonstrated predisposition to dispise barack obama, that you do not like this action. when the compromise came, because of the same predisposition, you opposed that too. in some feeble attempt to provide a basis for trying to generalize the above--which is all the argument you have---you adduce a whole string of non-sequitors. you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to catholicism. you seem to understand nothing about birth control as a social matter. you have no idea how to think about access to basic health care as anything other than in the cliche terms of the ultra-right. the only surprise is that you tried to bring friedman into it---i would have expected hayek, given the centrality of ignorance in his views.
    the_jazz and Baraka_Guru like this.
  11. Offline

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Washington DC
    If he feels so strongly about supporting the position of the Catholic Church in the US, maybe in his heart, ace agreed with the US Catholic bishops opposition to the Iraq war or supports their opposition to the death penalty or their support for a higher federal minimum wage or their support for an expanded welfare program so that no child in the country faces the indignity of going to bed hungry or their support for the right of workers to organize and bargain collectively or their opposition to the Arizona immigration law.....

    Or maybe he just cherry picks and, much like the evangelicals and social conservatives on the far right, he is a hypocrite when it comes to the playing the Catholic Church card.
  12. Offline

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor

    Location:
    Toronto
    What you think about an issue matters little when you're wrong; that is, unless you are making important decisions, especially ones that affect other people.

    Yes, I suppose there are government things and there are free-market things. But what matters most, usually, is "right now" things, rather than "theoretically" things.

    Sometimes you have to just grin and bear it. That's what it's like living in a wider society. You end up paying for things you don't necessarily believe in. So you get Catholics helping pay for contraceptives, peaceniks helping pay for the war in Iraq, vegans helping pay for deeply unbalanced subsidies for meat, egg, and dairy production, etc.

    Some would call this "unfair"; others would simply call it "reality." But I suppose it does come down to the public good. However, as my dear mother, who birthed six children, would say, "Jesus fucking Christ! You can't please everyone!"
    Carbonic likes this.
  13. Offline

    roachboy Moderator

    http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/feb/15/contraception-con-men/

    gary wills makes mincemeat of this latest idiocy from conservativeland.
    of course, there's no reason to expect that ace, for example, will read it. so i'll just bite the first paragraph.



    couldn't have said it better.
  14. Offline

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Why not do it through a direct government program? Some entities sponsor or self insure their own programs.
    If not a direct government program, why not adapt market techniques to drive prices down?

    I am not against Planned Parenthood. Why is it so difficult to understand the difference between supporting solutions that work and expecting changes when what is being done has problems. I have been very specific regarding my issues with Planned Parenthood, particularly in regard to the way they handle services to minors.
    --- merged: Feb 17, 2012 10:06 PM ---
    Fact, I don't like Obama as President.
    Fact, I don't like Obama's compromise on this issue.

    The two facts are independent of each other. I can give you a list of actions by Obama that I like. I can give you traits that he has that I like. And I can tell you exactly why I do not like him as President.

    My predisposition is not to despise Obama, my predisposition is to be suspect of his words relative to his actions. In my view there is a big difference.

    Here is another non-sequitor - the price of gas is expected to go over $4 per gallon this summer, could go up to $5. a growing number of experts have been predicting this, starting about a year ago. The contraception issue, is going to have almost no impact on anyone in this country. If gas hits $5 it could be devastating to the working poor, devastating to small business dependent on vehicle with limited ability to adjust prices (i.e. - services contracted in advance) - what is our leader doing about this?
  15. Offline

    Bodkin van Horn Very Tilted

    To paraphrase:

    Ace: This thing is dumb because of liberals.
    Various responders: It's not actually like you described it, and the way it actually is might not be perfect, but it's better than the alternative that you seem to be suggesting.
    Ace: But why can't the thing be different from how it actually is in a way that is completely tangential to the current discussion?
    Various responders: What does that have to do with your original complaint about the thing?

    Repeat. Over and over.
  16. Offline

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I am not Catholic. I did attend a Catholic grade school, and I understood I was a part of a Catholic institution and respected their teachings, values, and traditions. I am not religious, but I respect those who are. When I object to some religious activity, I don't participate or I leave. I don't get offended, I just exercise my right as a US citizen. As long as others do not try to force their views and beliefs on me, I would never have a problem with them. I assume they expect the same of me. That forms the basis of my response to this issue. It is clear to me, I do not know why you don't understand it.
    --- merged: Feb 17, 2012 10:17 PM ---
    You consistently demonstrate a higher tolerance for "wrongs" than I. I will never just grin and bear anything I think is wrong. I will always speak out or take action.
  17. Offline

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor

    Location:
    Toronto
    Do I? It may seem that way to you because you consistently demonstrate binary thinking.

    I don't think you know my positions as well as you think. It's probably because I spend most of my interaction with you talking about you.
  18. Offline

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    The problem I have with most liberals is the pretense, their deceptions, lack of conviction. I don't see how anyone can say that anyone in this debate wants to eliminate the availability of contraception in this country for those who want it. And if availability and affordability is the problem, there are more efficient ways to address these problems than Obama's compromise.

    It can be. I ask and respond to questions, give examples, elaborate on points in an effort to explore those possibilities.
    --- merged: Feb 17, 2012 10:31 PM ---
    Perhaps I don't understand what you meant by "grin and bear it". However, I consistently point out issues I find intolerable, things that need to be fixed - often you respond in a way that suggest what I present is not either true, not realistic, or not a problem at all. Obama's compromise on Obama-care is a failure, because key participants did not walk away from it with a common goal to make it work - this is a failure. If this is compromise in your view, it is failure from the start. How can you be satisfied with what Obamacare is and how it evolved, further evolving into problems we currently face with this contraception debate? How can anyone be satisfied with this, when many who voted on it did not read it, understand it, or even know what can of worms would be opened up? "Grin and bear it" is for the birds, so to speak.
  19. Offline

    bobGandalf Vertical

    Location:
    United States
    He addressed the issue. Gas prices are his immediate concern.
  20. Offline

    EventHorizon assuredly the cause of the angry Economy..

    Location:
    FREEDOM!
    it's a sad day when voters choose the future of their extremely multi-faceted country based on gas prices
    Carbonic likes this.