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One simple question regarding Obama's Jobs Bill

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by Aceventura, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'll assume these are rhetorical questions. It would normally go without saying, but with you it's difficult to know.

    Other than that, I don't know why you're confused. Ask me something specific about what I posted.
     
  2. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Time will tell, the rest of you, if the bill is serious or not. When you find out, are you going to come back and admit that I nailed it?
    --- merged: Sep 27, 2011 8:29 PM ---
    The last fact I posted was related to the fact that the Senate is doing nothing with the bill to date and it has not even been sponsored in the House. To which you never responded - but you did choose to go off on other tangents.
    --- merged: Sep 27, 2011 8:32 PM ---
    They are questions at the core of either you understanding me or me understanding you. I think Obama has had an impact on the economy, an impact on the business climate and that the impact has been negative. Further, I add that his impact has been the biggest on the sector most important to economic growth. You appear to disagree, it is not clear to me on what?
     
  3. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Well, I'm having a difficult time understanding you, mainly because you make vague statements of a speculative nature.
     
  4. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I showed data illustrating decline in business lending. I gave specific examples things done and said by the administration backing up my claims. I have given anecdotal examples. I have given quotes form others who share my point of view. I have attempted to respond to and address every question. And you say you have difficulty, perhaps it is my fault. I simply doubt it. You draw your conclusions from this, I will draw mine.
     
  5. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I guess I'm confused because you fail time and again to elucidate your points whenever I challenge them or ask for clarification. All of this is compounded with such fundamental problems as your refusal to acknowledge demand as a factor in an economy or specific market.

    It's really confusing, and therefore I have no conclusions.
     
  6. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I repeat myself. Demand is a factor in the economy. Innovation can create demand. Our dispute on this is, what comes first!

    How is that confusing?
     
  7. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    It wasn't discussed that way in the context of this thread.

    Are banks being innovative in creating demand for their loans?
     
  8. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    No.

    Banks are "fixing their balance sheets" based on the demands of regulators. They have to pass those "stress tests" or else...
     
  9. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Banks aren't the only factor in influencing demand, and the government isn't the only other factor.

    For starters, banks have been easing up on their loan requirements and demand for loans in increasing this year. However, this is perhaps because people are beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel with regard to the economy, considering the GDP continues its slow crawl upward.

    I'm sure you know what increases a business' demand for loans. Though you will say it's banks becoming less of a bully and the president to stop scaremongering the economy into an anti-business panic.

    I can only assume you know it's also when demand for a business' products and/or services increases beyond its capability to fulfill it. I can only assume you know it's also when they see new opportunities for new market growth where such opportunities were either too uncertain or too risky under broader economic factors tied into weak demand.

    Consumers: they're a big factor.
     
  10. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    If I waited for consumers, I would never make a single dime. Who in business can sit back and wait for consumers??? Perhaps only those businesses with a government protected monopoly.
     
  11. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I assume you somehow make money off of consumer activity, as I'm also assuming you're not a futures trader.

    But sitting back and waiting for consumers? I don't know many who can do that.
     
  12. A survey of economists reflects a favorable opinion of the jobs plan:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...s-2012-recession-in-survey-of-economists.html

    Modest predictions, but it's a nudge in the right direction. The longest journey begins with a single step.
     
  13. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    What we saw from the last stimulus, was that it was temporary. What we would see from this one would be temporary. I would rather we focus on long-term solutions. In the long-term it is clear that government is consuming to large a share of our economy. Spending relative to GDP has to go down, back to historical norms at the very least. This would do the most good for the most people, not only in the US but around the world. If there are economist who disagree, I would stand toe to toe with them and show the error in their ways.
     
  14. dippin Getting Tilted

    If any of this was even remotely true, bonds rates wouldn't be so ridiculously low. Of course, reality has little to do with your faith.
     
  15. How about getting the GDP back on the uptick? How about putting the country back to work making things? People earning wages buy things. More consumption, more demand, more hiring, more earning, more purchasing, more need for production... and more profits for business owners.

    Nah. Couldn't work. Too simplistic.
     
  16. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK

    Are you serious? He'd jump at the opportunity to hire an employee to clean the cum off the pilot's seat but not to work in his actual business location? What's the difference? Because one tax incentive gives him an excuse to buy his own jet and the other one merely gives him the opportunity to hire someone to take some of the burden off his currently overworked and stressed out employees. What's to say the seat cleaner won't sue him or ask for time off or, god forbid, turn out to be a homosexual?

    Quoting myself:
    Now I understand that business is not in the business of insuring it's employees a decent work environment and doesn't need to give a shit about their welfare but history will bear out the fact that companies which fail to give a shit long enough do not survive when the tide turns. You can't run any business on a shoestring - labor is no exception.

    An employee in the US is worth more than he/she is paid if one takes into consideration elements not currently included in any GDP findings. Time is money. All time. Not just work time. Put a value on the time spent with one's family or pursuing an interest outside of the office. Let's say the value I put on spending time with my son equates to $40/hr. I get paid $20/hr at my job. For every hour I spend at the office I am losing $20.

    Don't think these things aren't being calculated and modeled because they are.

    My point is, you underestimate the value and importance of the labor market and fail to make the connection between employees and consumers. They are the gas making the machine run, from both ends. I don't care if they're in the US, China or Timbuktu. The magical bean masters can tinker with the books all they want. It's a fool's game, in the end. Capitalism is not about making money, it's about keeping the machine running. But you and your ilk "don't get that and don't seem to want to put in any effort to understand."

    Your economic model is in flux, Ace. When it's all said and done, It won't look like the same can of worms you are so familiar with. http://www.thetfp.com/threads/one-simple-question-regarding-obamas-jobs-bill.1443/#ixzz1ZPSx9bFy
     
  17. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    In a high growth phase of the economy, bond rates tend to go up. When the economy retracts, bond rates tend to go down. In a special condition of stagflation, you could have both low/no economic growth and high inflation or in that case no growth with relatively high bond rates.
    --- merged: Oct 3, 2011 8:48 PM ---
    It is called a contract. Hiring either an independent contractor or firm to clean the jet would be done in a manner where he would limit is exposures and risks. He would not be able to do that in an employer/employee relationship - the law mandates what his liability is and he has very few options.

    On a side note - take a look at temp. employee, independent contractor employment trends - and then ask the next question, why the changing trend? Then ask the next question, is it a good thing and for who (or is it whom)?
     
  18. Alistair Eurotrash

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    But .. but .. don't many parts of the USA have this "at will" thing going on? As I understand it, workers there have pretty much zero in terms of "rights" or security. Does this argument still hold true? If so, why?
     
  19. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    "At will" employment has been eroding over the years I have been a working adult. Supposed employee friendly legislation and judicial interpretation has made hiring employees a risky venture for employers. I worked for a large fortune 500 type company, a medium size regional corporate business and I now own my own business. Large companies that have the resources and legal expertise on employment law have a much easier time navigating the obstacles, this includes federal, state and local issues. It has been about 2 years since I have hired someone, and I will most likely need to go to a seminar or do tons of research on my own to make sure I don't make a mistake when I hire - the law/regulations/judicial interpretations changes that fast. It is not something I look forward to. And I would never, ever, ever, hire a person in California, I would shut my business down first.
     
  20. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    What employment laws and regulations have changed in the last ten years. What judicial interpretations have favored workers over employers in the last few years?