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Paying Cash for a House: Gnarly or Stupid?

Discussion in 'Tilted Life and Sexuality' started by Plan9, Aug 27, 2011.

  1. Ourcrazymodern?

    Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering

    To such governments as we have, ELP, ownership seems better. As a debtor & taxpayer I'm not pleased, but affording alternatives is beyond my means until Tuesday or so.
     
  2. spindles

    spindles Very Tilted

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    ...but historical returns are not a basis for future investment. I have to note that I live in a country where house mortgages are a) not tax deductible b) a basic home mortgage rate is around 7%.

    I'd be hard pressed to find a "safe" return that would stop me paying money off my mortgage.

    Granted, my situation isn't what Plan9's is, so maybe I'm not comparing apples to apples. Still I would be happier to be debt free that worrying about possibly maximising my return.
     
  3. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    But it only applies if you have enough itemized deductions to exceed the standard deduction. Even then, depending on your tax bracket, you may be paying the mortgage company $10,000 in interest to save $2,800 in taxes.

    Lindy
     
  4. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    I'm glad everybody else is as confused as I am.
     
  5. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    You can't plan on exact duplication of historical returns. But if he can't, with the help of a financial advisor, get a 7.5% (or at least several points higher than the 3.9% mortgage he could get) return on conservative investment of $200k over 20 years it's going to be a near SHTF scenario anyway and mortgage or no mortgage is going to be a moot point because he's going to be trying to survive in a complete breakdown of society as we know it. Quite simply, if the financial structure in place today doesn't completely collapse, you are an idiot if you can't (with professional help) get much more than 3.9% out of that type of investment in 20 years.

    And you are correct that your situation is different if you can't claim mortgage interest on taxes and your mortgage rate would be twice his. But he asked us to game plan his scenario. And in his scenario it will cost him a massive amount of money ($150-175k is a very conservative number) to pay cash over getting a mortgage. I broke down the math in great detail with real numbers from the real world. I have yet to see anyone with a sound argument against the formula I laid out.

    And that's even without factoring in that he'd have almost his entire wealth locked up in the real estate market instead of completely diversified if he could invest it elsewhere. Rewind 5-6 years and think about anyone who paid cash for a house in Vegas, Phoenix, or those other areas where the housing market fell 30-50% almost overnight in some areas. I bet they wished they had mortgaged instead. And if the market went the other way, he'd still have a $200k mortgage on a $500k house, so he'd still have that equity to leverage even if he did mortgage it. It's having the best of both worlds.
     
  6. fflowley

    fflowley Don't just do something, stand there!

    I think your assumptions on rate of return are wildly optimistic.
    The 10 year Treasury currently yields 2%.
    The S&P is at about 1200 now.
    In September 2001 it was a little over 1100.
    We have a big down day tomorrow, the 10 year return ex-dividends on the S&P will be back around 0, as it has been for a while now.

    Since this seems so easy, can you share your top 3 ideas that will conservatively yield 7.5% a year for the next 10 or 20 years?
     
  7. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    As I've said all along, I'm looking at 20 year returns, as that is a reasonable mortgage length in his scenario. The 20 year return on the S&P 500 is above 11%. The 60 year average is above 7%. If, with the assistance of professional help, someone can't figure out how to leverage that into beating 3.9% minus a 28% tax write-off, they deserve to waste their own money.
     
  8. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    I'd buy outright. Whether the house loses value in the next 2-3 years due to a double-dip is highly irrelevant to you. Keep it as a home, live the comfortable life and sell it off at a profit in 10 years' time when prices have eventually risen again and you've piled up some more money due to the loss of rent.

    The recommendation by RogueGypsy to find a higher interest rate than the mortgage rate: avoid at any cost. Given inflation, your "investment" will go into the red area really quick.

    If you go mortgage + investment and are a beginner in the investment game, I suggest you get a diversified portfolio of investments: Buy a set percentage worth of gold (not at today's prices though) or stones (diamonds!), buy a set percentage worth of long-term shares (Google, anyone?). The rest, I'd look for investment opportunities. Hell, start a company overseas.

    Hope this helps.
     
  9. Ourcrazymodern?

    Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering

    Thanks.

    Investment's value
    is a gnarly-stupid game
    not like it could be.

    Throw money at them.
    They think they can eat so much.
    They'll get overstuffed.