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Rationalizing the Death Penalty

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by rogue49, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. Plan9

    Plan9 Standing in the Door Donor

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    Is that what they call it? I thought it involved mopeds, mistresses, espresso and going "Ciao!" a lot.

    The problem with the death penalty in Europe is all the crazy off-with-their-heads history.

    Between capital punishment and sharp military uniforms, there is a lot of bad blood.
     
  2. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Toronto
    It's called progress. You guys probably haven't heard of it.

    /zing
     
  3. Plan9

    Plan9 Standing in the Door Donor

    Location:
    This Island Earth
     
  4. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Toronto
    Okay, Mr. "My Country Just Posted a Disappointing 0.1% Quarterly Growth," you make it sound like there's no such thing as California... or New Jersey... or Illinois... or Rhode Island... or...
     
  5. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Considering what happened in Oklahoma last night we pretty have to reconsider how we go about the death penalty at this point.
    They did such a bad job it became a case of torture before execution.
    I'm pretty sure that's because they are getting their drugs from a shady source (maybe a vet) and the drug isn't working the way it's supposed to.

    A bullet would have been kinder.

    Oklahoma Botches Clayton Lockett's Execution
     
  6. Plan9

    Plan9 Standing in the Door Donor

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    Sure enough.

    ...

    I was waiting for someone to comment on that botched procedure that was all over CNN yesterday. As I see it? No different than any other medical fuck-up. Only difference is that he was supposed to die, not recover.
     
  7. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Toronto
    It's kinda like an elective mandatory surgery.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Except that a medical procedure would have a review board and people could be sued.
    We know that's not happening.
    The one thing that has to happen is the state has to prove they are getting their drugs from a reputable source, that the drugs are clean, and the people who are administering them know what the hell they are doing.
    Transparency is key and they have been fighting that from the start.
     
  9. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Actually, I wouldn't mind that to a certain extent...the amount of damage they did is huge.
    And perhaps it would finally get Execs and White Collar criminals to do the right thing.
    They do it, because they know they can get away with it...typically not much more than a hand-slap.

    Poisoning, Ruining Lives, Kidnapping Homes, Cascading economic structure damage and so on.
    They triggered a financial nuclear bomb.

    And what about those who execute or order intentional poisoning of the environ with a known toxin?
    Isn't that a terrorist act?

    Although, I'd say Madoff...that is obvious, apparent and specific, same principles I had before.
    So he'd be a good candidate.

    Enron was more ambiguous, spread out amongst many...and it seems like they took each other out.
    (I really don't think the CEO died when he did, much too convenient)
    I'm not sure if that would qualify for DP under my very strict criteria I have for it.

    Which is worse, being imprisoned the rest of your life, with no prospects of parole...or the DP?
    Personally, if I was faced with the first...I may consider the 2nd.
    And again, in these cases, I'm not about "punishing" or "getting even"...it's about removing someone from society permanently, period.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
  10. Street Pattern

    Street Pattern Very Tilted Donor

    Places like Oklahoma that continue to use the death penalty are doing so as a political statement of how tough they are.

    Everybody else refuses to participate, as a statement of how civilized they are.

    Oklahoma is going to lose this fight.
     
  11. omega

    omega Very Tilted Donor

    Obviously I'm not against the death penalty. As a matter of fact, that was an interview question because my state does have the death penalty on it's books.
    Why would we need to kill white collar criminals? How about we apply the laws we have and jail them? Place a significant chunk in the correctional system and the rest will figure it out pretty quickly.
     
  12. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    I don't know that I have a problem with the death penalty, in theory-- at least, not for the perpetrators of especially vicious and brutal murders, or serial murderers.

    What I do have a problem with is that the death penalty in America is handed out far too casually, the burden of proof is far too low, and the prisoner spends years, or even decades, living on Death Row while their lawyers send appeal after appeal through the system; not to mention that shockingly often, deeply insufficient care is taken to ensure that the convicted party is, in fact, actually guilty of the crime in question. And when a person is actually executed, it is often barbarically excruciating.

    This is actually one area where I wish American law would learn a thing or two from Jewish Law. Back in the day when we ran our own court system, and judged capital cases, such cases were judged by a court of between 23 and 71 judges. The judges had to return guilty verdicts numbering precisely one fewer than their total number (i.e., a court of 23 could only convict with 22 guilty votes)-- more than one vote for not guilty rendered an acquittal, and a unanimous vote for guilty rendered an automatic acquittal by mistrial, the presumption being that the only way that not a single person could vote to spare the life of another human being was for the judges to be corrupted by bribery. To even be considered a capital case, there had to be two eyewitnesses to the crime, who verbally warned the perpetrator not to do the crime on pain of death, and heard the perpetrator acknowledge the warning and reject it before doing the crime. The witness accounts had to match perfectly, and perjury of eyewitness testimony in a capital case was itself a capital crime. Testimony and evidence was considered in the minutest of detail, always with an eye toward acquitting. If all these things still resulted in a guilty verdict, execution had to take place within 48 hours, by the quickest methods known at that time, and the condemned had to be rendered insensible with a drug or alchol before execution.

    If American capital cases were conducted with that level of scrupulousness, and that level of bias toward not ending in a sentence of death, I would be much more comfortable with the idea of there being a functioning death penalty.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    BTW...I was being facetious about giving the DP to the execs who polluted or caused financial damage...to make a point.

    As @Levite noted above, the criteria for DP should be strict and distinct...obvious, VERY high bar...completely scrupulous.
    And for those that cannot be in society ever again for whatever reason.

    These corporate crimes are more ambiguous, group oriented, political...and the sentences are used to punish. (a corrective action)
    Those who commit them can be isolated from working in the industry ever again...but they can be allowed in society.
    So they would not be candidates for the DP.

    No matter how angry you are...or the damage they did financially...they can still live productive lives after the fact, if rehabilitated.
    You just don't let them near their "guns" or "gang" again, business wise.
     
  14. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    The death penalty is not administered justly in the US. On this basis, it should be discontinued. Justice is not blind. Justice or in-justice can depend on many factors not related to actual criminal behavior - i.e., race, sex, age, wealth, the social status of the victim, location along with countless other biases found within our judicial system.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. DamnitAll

    DamnitAll Wait... what? Donor

    Location:
    Central MD
    A letter to the editor in today's edition of my local newspaper proposes an interesting tactic to administering the death penalty, and I'm curious to hear what folks here think of the idea.

    I'm sure there are plenty of complications associated with such measures, but on the surface I personally find it promising. Thoughts?
     
  16. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    And his last words were, "What a rush..."

    Frankly, I don't mind at all.
    Then again, I believe in euthanasia too.

    If they want to go that way...then that satisfies my criteria.
    As long as they are away from society, never coming back nor are we paying to support them to live in prison.
    And how they were prosecuted were under strict conditions with no doubt whatsoever. (no circumstantial evidence, etc...)

    It's not punishment I'm interested in...nor vengeance.
    Simply they're a human that shouldn't belong around other humans any more, there is no rehabilitating them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Toronto
    Sorry, I think it's dumb. Death by overdose of heroin (intentional or otherwise) can be complicated and messy. (It can take hours.) Otherwise, why not use it for executions?
     
  18. Plan9

    Plan9 Standing in the Door Donor

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    Because it's the fuel that runs the engine that produces the best grunge albums.

    ...

    Using an illegal narcotic that has gone through zero regulatory processes is a little questionable. I mean, it's not like the FDA has a QCQA stamp that can go on the side of a brick of black tar.

    I'm petty and I would, however, prefer to see murderers killed by their own murder weapons. Just imagine the fun!

    ...

    The problem with the goal of killing as quickly and painlessly as possible is that the process has to be pretty to be palatable. Can't put a 5.56mm in the temple. Too messy.

    So the weak-ass PC answer is drug cocktails, electric shock, poisonous gas or something that otherwise doesn't visibly damage the body all that much.

    Again, I'm perplexed at how people so foaming-at-the-mouth for the death penalty want it done in a "he just went to sleep" manner.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  19. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    The fact is killing people is messy and, as those of you with any experience in that know, even the things that usually work well can go wrong.

    If we as a nation decide that executions are necessary than we are obligated by the laws to make non-torturous.
    That doesn't mean they have to be pretty.
    We only go the pretty route to make the people doing the killing feel better.
    I'm sure if we used the guillotine and people got to see the head drop into the basket there might be a 'drop off' in the call for executions.
     
  20. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Nope, guillotine would be fine. Fast & efficient.
    I don't know about anyone else, but I don't need them to "seem" passive/sleep/etc.
    As long as it's done, done quick.
    However, at the same time...We don't need to witness it. (I think those observation rooms are strange)
    There's no entertainment value in it...shouldn't be either.
    This is not about satisfaction or those who want "justice"...if it's necessary get it over and done with, no fuss.
     
    • Like Like x 1