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Socialism and Democracy

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by Punk.of.Ages, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. Punk.of.Ages

    Punk.of.Ages Getting Tilted

    I approach the TFP Politics board today for the first time as a humble man looking to educate himself...

    Anybody who has ever paid any attention to the political posts I've made over the years surely knows that I have always had my opinions, but I'm realizing as I age that a lot of the opinions I have formed over the years are based on a young man's speculation, personal perception, and not a whole lot of actual research or understanding. In realizing this, I have spent more time as of late trying to actually educate myself than I have in the past.

    One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people feel America is turning into a socialist country and that this implies that we will cease to be a democracy.

    Now, from my understanding of the two words and their definitions, it seems to me that this is like comparing apples to oranges. As I understand it, socialism is an economic ideal and democracy is a governmental construct. This implies to me that the two could feasibly coexist.

    In this light, I pose a couple of questions:
    1. Is it possible to have a socialist economic structure along side of a democratic government?
    2. If so, what are the pros and cons of such a society?

    [EDIT to take into account that many people on this board are not American]
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
    Punk.of.Ages, Jul 9, 2012
    #1
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    You are correct. Socialism is a means of managing an economy. Democracy is a means of empowering, maintaining, and operating a government. The two can and do work hand in hand. Actually, they work hand in hand with capitalism as well. See below.

    Look at northern European countries for great examples of social democracy, or, more specifically, the Nordic countries: Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, etc. Now look at how they're faring in this turbulent decade. Not too shabby.

    One quick way to know what these countries are like is to read this: Nordic model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    One quick way to know what I mean when I say "social democracy," read this: Social democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Yes, this is encyclopedic information, but it's a good starting point.

    We can unpack this loaded question once you've had a chance to know where I'm coming from.

    Also bear in mind that places such as Canada, although mainly liberal and conservative, do have a growing social democratic presence. (And, interestingly, we're not doing too shabby either.) Consider the recent "orange wave": Not only did it lead to a historic election last federal election, but more recently the social democratic NDP are, for the first time, polling higher than even the majority government, which is currently conservative.

    I'm a socialist, a social democrat to be exact. Yes, there are differences between degrees of socialism. For example, I don't want revolution; I want a workable capitalism. I'm a staunch supporter of mixed economies. That sort of thing.

    And you know what? I have representation in my federal and provincial governments. Actually, on the federal level, the social democratic party is the official opposition in parliament for the first time in history.

    Anyway, this might be a lot to digest if much of this is new to you, so I'll leave it here for now. Feel free to ask me anything.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
    Baraka_Guru, Jul 9, 2012
    #2
  3. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    most of the industrialized world operates with some form or another of what i suppose you'd call democratic socialism. the idea behind it is simple: capitalism as an economic system creates social and political dysfunctions that are at cross-purposes not only with the unaided continuation of capitalism itself, but also with the well-being of most people. the other main idea is that capitalism is subordinated to the political...

    (look around at the states for a living example of what happens when the contrary is understood to be reasonable. if you want a nice little snapshot from today, look at this:

    Rules of American justice - Salon.com

    but i digress).

    democratic socialism is more democratic than is the american system for a number of reasons, not least this subordination of capitalism to the political, which makes it, in theory anyway, far more responsive to social and economic consequences of actions, wage policies, etc. it is more democratic because social democratic systems provide services like universal health care, which ameliorates the consequences of the class stratification that capitalism tends to produce. it doesn't eliminate that stratification, that inequality, but it is mitigated. that seems to me a good idea.

    another main difference is that social-democratic systems are, in general, oriented around full employment as a political objective. so regulation and social policy is geared around that. there is also, in general, less a hostility toward the poor, so less a tendency to construct systems that redistribute wealth as forms of punishment, as the american system has famously pioneered from the 19th century forward. puritans, they say. assholes more like.

    there's more, but i'll stop for now here. except---how democratic is the american system really? you are politically free one day every 4 years. well, every other year. between those moments, even criminal administrations like the bush people can remain in power and there's nothing to be done. but i digress again. sort of.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
    roachboy, Jul 9, 2012
    #3
  4. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    And what roachboy said.

    Plus expanding on "things like universal health care" to include cheap if not free education (even post-secondary).
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
    Baraka_Guru, Jul 9, 2012
    #4
  5. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Like what we sacrificed 4,000 lives for in Iraq where the new Constitution guarantees rights beyond those in our own Constitution, including the right to work, the right to join trade unions,minimum wage,[ universal health care,[free education, dignity...

    Yet to expect the same for our own citizens is somehow a bad thing.
     
    redux, Jul 9, 2012
    #5
  6. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Well, first of all...many who are saying this...don't really know what Socialism is...or are exaggerating a point.

    The US is far from Socialist, as a matter of fact, we cater to the corporate structure too much.

    They are confusing Government effort to support the nation, with the idea of ANY government is bad.

    You are seeing basically people investing themselves on "labels"
     
    rogue49, Jul 10, 2012
    #6
  7. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    The US is myopic when it comes to politics. The discourse is so skewed that it's almost impossible to have a rational discussion.

    And I agree with pretty much all that has been said above.
     
    Charlatan, Jul 10, 2012
    #7
  8. Punk.of.Ages

    Punk.of.Ages Getting Tilted

    So, clearly, I have been quite ignorant myself, as I did not know that many countries do blend socialism and democracy.

    Now, that I have an idea of what's going on, I still ponder the pros and cons of such a structure...

    I have witnessed a few pros mentioned in this thread and to me, it seems that this type of system is far more akin to what I view as an ideal society. Less selfishness and more community, but I (obviously) have a very narrow view at this point. Somebody has to disagree with what seems to be the popular opinion here...
     
    Punk.of.Ages, Jul 31, 2012
    #8
  9. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Germans love democratic socialism. No disagreement with the above here.
     
    Remixer, Jul 31, 2012
    #9
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Social democracy doesn't sit well with anyone right of centre. (Quelle surprise!)

    Conservatives will generally look at social democrats as the worst kind of "tax and spend" liberal. While taxes will generally be higher under social democrats, they are often put to good use.

    Conservatives also tend to oppose the active regulatory activities of social democrats, especially those tied into social realities. Social democracy tends to be concerned with the health and well-being of citizens, and so you'll find common themes under regulatory measures. These will often include environmental protection (esp. pollution standards) and food & water safety standards. You will also see many tied into consumer and worker safety.

    This is what gets conservatives all riled up with charges of "nanny statism." Though I find this charge is ironic, given the more deeply ingrained nanny statism that conservatives totally love, such as business subsidies and trade tariffs and quotas. There is a lot of hypocrisy. It's okay to protect and support businesses but not citizens?

    Ultimately, social democracy is about reinforcing the public economically and socially. It recognizes the function of capitalism as the expected way to organize an economy, but it's distrustful of it in terms of letting it operate unchecked. In terms of capitalism run amok, it sees poverty as an expected outcome. It sees human rights violations as an expected outcome. It sees militarism as an expected outcome.

    Social democracy is essentially capitalism tempered with socialism. When carefully organized, it makes for stable and prosperous societies, relatively speaking.

    Conservatives, on the other hand, see this kind of organization as an infringement on freedom. They see it as "big government" telling people what to do. They see it as tyrannical. Well, this is a gross exaggeration. What's more is that a society built around purely market-centric forces (a conservative's dream) would be far more tyrannical to those subject to the unavoidable consequences of capitalism and the flow of wealth.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
    Baraka_Guru, Jul 31, 2012
    #10
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