1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. We've had very few donations over the year. I'm going to be short soon as some personal things are keeping me from putting up the money. If you have something small to contribute it's greatly appreciated. Please put your screen name as well so that I can give you credit. Click here: Donations
    Dismiss Notice

Politics The 2016 US Presidential Election

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by ASU2003, Mar 23, 2015.

  1. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Wholeheartedly agreed with Borla.

    I've been doing a lot of reading up and the general sentiment I could gather was that the blame squarely rests on the DNC establishment playing favourites, the shenanigans of Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Donna Brazile, as well as Hillary actively condoning their actions by not pushing for justice and instead hiring them into her staff; all of which leaving a really bad aftertaste in the mouths of most observers.

    There's also the matter that the Correct The Record's online activities were less about informing people about the facts of the election and more about disrupting any balanced discussions taking place on large websites and forums such as Reddit. And it appears there's a perception that staunch Hillary supporters had a confident smugness about them and Hillary's assured victory, which further created distaste.

    It's also a curious anecdote that all the females aged between 30 and 13 that I know personally have a horribly negative impression of Hillary and her "entitled to the women's vote" attitude.

    To put the blame on people who were dissatisfied with the main candidates in this election is grossly disingenuous and plain false. Blame the clusterfuck of a Democratic campaign and the sheer incompetence/arrogance of those in charge of it.

    Instead of blaming third-party voters such as genuinemommy, I'd recognize that they started paving the way for a viable 3rd and/or 4th option on the presidential ballot to be considered. The monolithic 2-party system in the US needs to be dismantled, but as a European my thoughts on the American system are obvious.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member



    Early analysis is saying that somewhere around 91% of Rs voted Trump. 89% of Ds voted Hillary. It was the big group in the middle who swung very heavily to Trump, giving him the win. Replace Hillary with Bernie and my personal opinion is that the D vote would be a few points higher (93-94%?). And all the "shy" Trump voters who were ashamed to admit they were going to vote for him? I think the overwhelming majority would've voted for Bernie. My personal take is that the middle group went for Trump almost entirely for some combination of two reasons. One, it was a vote against the Washington establishment and the perception that the mainstream media could steer the election. Two, they detested the huge amount of perceived corruption around Hillary's money and email issues. Replace Hillary with Bernie and a vote for him is still a vote against Washington and mainstream media. And you delete the entire issue of corruption and money.

    We can never know for sure, but I think Bernie would've taken the election by a wider margin than Trump did. A huge amount of Trump votes were strictly anti-Hillary/corruption/establishment votes that I believe either would've went to Bernie, or would've sat on the sidelines.

    Who knows if I'm right, but I feel pretty strongly that that is the case.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & don't criticize. Donor

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    I'm looking forward to reading some analysis of the election, in a few days after the information is available.

    Links to reputable sources would be appreciated!
     
  4. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    I don't think Bernie would have fared much better. The right wing media would have trashed him, and the same right wing voters (anti-gun control, anti women's rights, anti-environment, anti-LGBT) would have come out to vote like they did. The right wing Republicans were more afraid of a liberal Supreme Court justice it turned out. Bernie might have had an even harder time getting the black vote too.

    This is the racist southern strategy actually working because so many liberals have moved to the coasts and away from the upper midwest. The people that are here have the power and are raising kids to follow in their footsteps.

    I think the 3rd/4th parties were distractions and they really need to run in the primary. Jill Stein may have won if it was just her vs Trump, but I see the same problem of not converting voters and just trying to get out the vote. The campaign didn't bring up the past 6 years of Republican problems during the election.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Time for Monty Python's catchphrase...
    "And now for something completely different..."
     
  6. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Once again, a democratically elected president loses to the electoral college.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pav├ęs, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    I've said it elsewhere...

    This was 100% a repudiation of the neoliberal establishment.

    Clinton was the establishment vote and Trump was the vote for change (much as Obama was in 2008). Change for the sake of change. Trump spewed many things in his campaign, but one part that stuck was his ability to speak for the many that feel left behind by the existing system. The global elite and the economics of globalisation have left many behind, but in the restructuring of economy also for got to (or purposefully neglected to) redistribute the new found wealth.

    It wasn't long ago that there was an actual middle class. One hard-working bread winner on an average salary could afford to pay taxes, own a house, pay for school... live a comfortable family life. The stagnation of wages, the squashing of public amenities, the transfer of public to the private... and more have lead to a hollowed out nation and a large swathe of people who feel left behind.

    In the face of this, the panacea of isolationist, xenophobic, increasingly fascist rhetoric for many is a salve. It offers a boogeyman and a seemingly simple solution. The problem is, the issues are more complicated. The actual solutions will difficult to implement.

    Hearing someone say, I will fix it. I will make it better again. It's soothing and simple.

    There is more... but to my eyes, that's at the root of what we are seeing in the US and elsewhere in the World.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & don't criticize. Donor

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    Once the dust settles, and Trump starts taking action, even pre-inauguration, we'll need a thread along the lines of

    Trump as POTUS.

    It'll be a good way to monitor and comment on what he plans to do. I can see several of his promises being abandoned very quickly; I'm especially interested in his plans to have Mexico pay for The Wall along the border.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    I know that this is part of it. There are plenty of Trump supporters in the run down White part of town where heroin, old run down houses, and crime are. They blame the government for assisting minorities and giving out welfare based on how many kids you have. I know Trump won't fix that, but the right wing media and the peer pressure from the right wing has taken over that part of the Midwest.

    However, where I live is in a upper middle class suburb, and people may be getting by paycheck to paycheck, but that would be self imposed because they want to live above their means. There are a lot of well off people who voted for Trump who do have jobs. Plenty of them have bought big pickup trucks in the last 8 years that cost tens of thousands of dollars. I also think that the God, Guns, Gays, and Greed issues were not dealt with and no effort was made to counter the propaganda and lies that the right wing media has been telling to these people. The Democrats also lost the on-line campaign, which is just as important as calling people or knocking on doors.
     
  10. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany

    I have said this before, a long time ago: I heavily doubt that Trump is who he made himself out to be during this election and its campaign. He's a salesman at the core, and he'll say, negotiate and promise whatever necessary to get the deal done. His background in TV shows and being a faux personality on them only helps this case.

    The facade of being an inflammatory, racist, xenophobic, homophobic "personality" stands at odds with his history of having been a registered Democrat for 8 years and having supported politicians on both sides of the aisle over the years. I think we'll be seeing a much more moderate presidency than the left fears.

    Of course I could be wrong and he may have actually adopted the recent rhetoric and corresponding mindset.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & don't criticize. Donor

    Location:
    Large City, TX

    The idea that Trump the Candidate is different from Trump the Actual Person has been presented before. And I certainly hope that Trump the President will be very different from both of them. He could actually put his experience as a businessman to good use as POTUS. One strange aspect of this is his shady business dealings--no question he has them, the question is how many and just how shady--might serve him well in politics.

    I'm doing my best to see some light in the darkness surrounding Trump. Because I have no choice.

    -------------------------------

    A question for those who seriously follow politics and/or those with experience in the legal field (my experience in litigation support doesn't reach this far):

    If something majorly criminal
    --for example leading to felony charges of racketeering--
    were to come out about Trump, with very clear no doubt about it proof, how would that affect his status as the elected but not yet swore in POTUS?
     
  12. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North


    It's not so much that he isn't like that but who he surrounded himself to get this election done and THEY are very much like that from his vice-president right on down.
    The fact is Trump has never liked the hard work of making decision and tends to put people he knows to be loyal to him in the position to do that for him (not necessarily the smartest or best person but the most loyal person).
    So the be prepared for so much of the anti-gay, anti-climate change, anti-immigrant stuff to happen.

    I am a little worried about how he is going to handle not being able to accomplish some of the things he promised.
    The wall isn't going to happen obviously and he is going to have to come up with an excuse, someone to blame.
    Maybe the Jews?
    Wait that was the last guy.
    All Godwin's Law aside, I worry about where the blame will be laid and how the anger of his supporters will be directed.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany

    Agreed. Next to the schadenfreude I've been having for the past year as a neutral observer of US politics, I am both pleased with Hillary/The Establishment getting a well-deserved Fuck You from the populace, and hopeful that Trump will actually serve as a massive catalyst for sweeping changes in the American political landscape. If he so much as manages to make lobbying of politicians illegal and gets rid of the bullshit system which Citizens United has brought about, I'll be happy. His presidency may still be a clusterfuck, but those two issues would go a long way for long-term changes to the core of the present political machine.


    Honestly, I do worry how the politicking within Congress will play out for him in practice and whether he can push hard to get things done without making too many concessions. Given how House of Cards has been previously described as pretty accurate by former politicians, I'd worry a lot. You could see in the presidential debates that Hillary was made of much sterner stuff and behaved in a highly calculating manner compared to the billionaire-capitalist-shady dealmaker that is Trump. That is greatly worrying to me.

    The cesspool that is US politicking will undoubtedly be a massive challenge for Trump to maneuver through. We'll have to see exactly how successful he can be in dealing and pushing his way through.

    As for the disappointment of his supporters, I wouldn't worry much. Obama turned out to be a massive letdown and nobody rioted. Many of them have now voted for Trump and if he doesn't succeed, it'll just be another letdown in a long series of letdowns caused by the US political establishment.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    I've reading polls saying that a majority of Americans are surprised and not happy that Trump won.
    But almost 50% did NOT vote.

    Sorry, if you don't vote...you deserve what you get.
    Apathy doesn't get you anything.
    You got to be in it, to win it.
    Geez :rolleyes:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. genuinemommy

    genuinemommy Moderator Staff Member

    My husband repeatedly attempted to convince people not to vote in this election. He made arguments one after another about how they're not educated enough to vote, that they are poorly informed, that they are simply pawns in a game, and ultimately their vote was worthless.

    It was baffling to me at the time. I had never heard him say these things. Turns out he was getting these ideas from the radio. There was a clear trend this election of Trump voters doing the same, en masse. It sounds to me like their mind games worked.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    I doubt this is going to happen...frankly I think the fight has gone from her.
    But they should do it any way consider how many Russian hacks were noted in the campaign systems (both sides I think, if I recall)
    Really, it should be anytime it's close.
    Experts ask Clinton to seek recount in 3 battleground states
     
  17. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Is Trump's strategy in assembling his cabinet to find the least qualified person for each position? Is he blatantly trying to subvert/destroy the executive branch of our government?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    There is a large segment of people who want the government to fail so they won't have to pay taxes and won't have to follow regulations they don't like.
     
  19. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    It's time for Democrats to fight dirty
    Yes...so much so. And I don't care if it slows everything down to nothing. (hey, I can live with the status quo for awhile)
    WHY??
    Because some don't learn until the same pain is provided to them. Same principle you have to use on bullies in HS. (Sorry, teachers...it really doesn't work otherwise)

    I'm not really pro-Dem...but the shit the GOP has gotten away with in the last some years has been disgusting.
    It really isn't civilized anymore.
    I'd prefer for it to be civilized and intelligent...but some aren't playing by "rules". There are NO rules anymore.

    So, it's gotten to the point of M.A.D.
    If you want to destroy them, know they can destroy you.
    Pain goes both ways.

    Perhaps after an utter bare-knuckles brawl...will the other side realize they need to play with the same Football rules as all the teams.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  20. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I am more of the mindset of not acting like Congressional Republicans and attempting to obstructing nearly everything.

    Vocally oppose, but dont attempt to obstruct, Trump/Republican tax reform, repeal of the ACA, immigration, trade policies, deregulation. Force them to take ownership of these proposal and save the fight for 2018/2020 when Democrats can point to the impact of these Republican proposals on working class families, on immigrant families, on how Wall Street wins and Main Street loses, etc.

    Save the obstruction (as much as possible) for the most dire issues with the most long term consequences. Supreme Court nomination. legislation rolling back civil rights/LGBT rights, women's reproductive rights, etc.