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Politics The 2016 US Presidential Election

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by ASU2003, Mar 23, 2015.

  1. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    How many times do you think the US, directed by high level gov't officials, worked to influence a foreign election?
     
  2. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I dont know, probably a fair amount behind the scenes in a manner that may have had an impact. Certainly the US has a long history of attempting to destabilize and influence governments (and elections) through "political warfare'"

    But, IMO, you are still comparing apples and oranges with the Yeltsin example and a deliberate attempt to influence the election by hacking into the private accounts of US citizens and organizations (who are certainly at fault for their own sloppy controls and lack of security in protecting their data) as opposed to private US citizen serving as paid consultants to office-seekers in other countries.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  3. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    Peer reviewed political science studies have said that one of every nine national level elections in the world is influenced by the US or Russia, not always using legal means.

    Link: Research and Dissertation | Dov H. Levin

    Recent news story about the US's history of doing this: The U.S. is no stranger to interfering in the elections of other countries

    It's been done by both political parties (Clinton sent James Carville to Israel to work against Netanyahu when he was President, the Bush administration spent a fortune in Yugoslavia in the early 2000s for just two examples). If you believe even a fraction of leaked info, there were many illegal acts done for decades to influence elections by both the US and Russia/USSR since WWII ended.

    I'm not arguing it is right. I'm not arguing against it being a problem. I do think the fact that the "hacking" was largely revealing how people were talking privately in contradiction of what they were saying publicly is getting missed by most people. It's pretty rare that we argue that it isn't fair we were told the truth, lol. There are also a lot of people who argue that the most harmful info was leaked by DNC insiders, not "hacked" because password security was so awful. True or not, some stories have said the exact same actions were attempted against BOTH sides. I'd argue that Putin probably wanted to create a mess most of all, no matter who won or who was dragged through the mud.



    To be honest, the biggest disappointment for me is to see the rhetoric of those who seem out of touch with reality. I remember eight years ago I was active on a couple other boards, one or two of which were about as right-leaning as TFP is left-leaning. Back then, everyone was spouting off about Obama imposing Sharia Law, confiscating their guns, letting UN armies take over the US, and a bunch of other far-fetched crazy talk. I feel like, in many spaces I now read, I'm seeing the left's version of that. Trump is going to deport half the country, nuke North Korea, and end all social services. To both groups I've just facepalmed.

    A funny anecdote (at least I chuckle at it) on another board that has posts dating back 13-14 years still accessible......Rs were complaining about all the days Obama took off to golf, go to Hawaii for family vacations, etc. Ds defended him, saying that the President is never truly on vacation, that he's always accessible, that the stress of the job deserves downtime, etc. A thread went back and forth for days with this argument. I dug into post archives. I found a similar thread created when Bush was President. The EXACT same users were arguing. Except, at that time, the Ds were attacking Bush for spending time at his ranch and the Rs were arguing that he could still do his job from there. When I pointed out the hypocrisy no one could rationalize why they had flipped sides.

    Honestly, most political talk just makes me shake my head. I don't get how anyone can really buy in to either party (again, many say they don't, then vote straight or almost straight ticket, actions speak louder than words in that regard). I probably shouldn't have even gotten involved in this discussion, I can't remember a time anyone's view was legitimately changed by message board talk. :D I was just laying in bed half awake on my phone and hit "submit" to what I was thinking instead of yawning and falling back asleep. :p
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I dont dispute any of the above.

    I still think the Yeltsin example is a false comparison despite it being all over conservative websites and message boards in the last 24 hours. :)
     
  5. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member


    FWIW, those aren't sites I visit unless I see a link somewhere else, and then I take them with a giant truckload of salt when I look. I saw the story on the front page of r/all a week or three ago, then I read the actual Time article itself.

    If you feel it's a poor comparison, okay, I don't feel at any point I was every saying "it's EXACTLY the same". My point was that interfering in elections, legally, illegally, openly, subtly, whatever, has gone on forever, and is hugely documented since WWII. The nuances vary, but it isn't a new or unusual tactic. If you took away that comparison as my main point, either I wasn't being clear, or you read more into it than intended.

    The vast majority of what I said in this thread has been on other topics, so it wasn't even my main point, just a passing comment on something I personally found irony in. ;) I was mainly trying to give a new sound to the echo chamber and see how it bounced off the wall. I honestly don't care to try to convince anyone they are wrong, or I am right (once, I actually was wrong, believe it or not, but I don't usually admit it :p ). Had I been completely awake I probably would've done what I usually do and type out half of a reply, delete it, and move on about my day. :D
     
  6. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    Economic pressure is applied as well. And the 80's Republicans backed the right wing party in Latin America too.

    I think Putin didn't want to have to deal with Clinton on the international stage. And I don't think you have to go all the way back to Yelsin to find out what the Clinton's have tried to do against Russian interests. Either at the UN or in land conflicts over control of resources in the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
     
  7. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    I'm sorry but I just can't bend my head around the 'America has been doing it for years so we just got what was coming to us. The Russians only exposed the DNC's dirty dealings, nobody made people vote they way they did.' logic.
    If China had hacked the RNC and released the information in a targeted fashion to influence the election in Hillary's favor the Republicans would want the election overturned in a hot minute.
    Hypocrisy is the only thing that doesn't keep them from feeling the same way now.
    Sending John Carville and other political operatives to countries to show the locals how to run an election is hugely different from hacking private individuals to leak the information to tip the election in favor of a puppet.
     
  8. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    If you think I am making a "we just got what's coming to us" argument, I'm either not expressing it right, or you aren't reading it right.

    On the flip side, if you think showing locals how to run an election is all the US has been doing for the last 70 years, we disagree. Again, I'm still not arguing two wrongs make a right.

    As I said before, I'm usually smart enough to not bother arguing or commenting in detail about politics on the internet. I used to do it a lot more in another space where I ran. The Ds thought I was an R, the Rs thought I was a D. I kept trying to explain how I thought neither were right most of the time. Never got there, lol.
     
  9. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North

    I wasn't really commenting to your post just to what I've been seeing in so many posts all over Facebook.
    I get that you were just amused by the irony.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    I'm a realist...I know there's always some influence & corruption.
    From everywhere, from ALL sides.
    And I don't mind a projection of power within reason.

    But there's been a preponderance that I've never noted before.
    And this in conjunction with hacking, tons of fake news and wikileaks cooperation (if that isn't obvious by now...)

    My instincts are saying something is up...way beyond the norm.

    And sure, the US has done it...BUT, I'm an American citizen, so excuse me if I'm concerned...I'm supposed to be. (just like I'd expect a Russian to be pissed if they found we really fucked with their stuff...and act to fix it)
    Sooo...screwing the hypocrisy claim...we still need to deal with the act, prevent further action...AND make sure that our leaders are NOT susceptible to influence. (especially the guy with the finger on the button)

    Then we REALLY need to take a good look at our election system. There are too many questions, holes and manipulations. (again, from everywhere and all sides)
    It's one thing to have a leak, it's another to have a break in the levy.
     
  11. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam