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The debates on the Debates

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by rogue49, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Now there's an idea. Splitting votes. I'd go with 40% Obama, 60% Jill Stein.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Not complicated at all.

    I do not need to agree with a person on everything for them to get my unyielding or 100% support. I will debate issues all day long, I will support my view, and attack a view I do not agree with - but at the end of the day, after an open and honest airing of issues, concerns, differences - if I respect the other person they will have my unyielding support. I would go to the mat for that person. I would follow that persons lead. I would risk my life for that person. That person will know I am in their corner. Examples - I do not agree with my wife on everything - she has my unyielding support because I know who she is, how she thinks and what I can expect, no surprises. I can not say that for everyone. On the political side, and I have written this many times, I would follow Dennis Kucinich any day of the week because I respect him and he acts in accord to his convictions. I do not feel that way about Romney, or President Obama.

    Are you suggesting you approach this issue differently? If so, how?
    --- merged: Oct 30, 2012 at 5:17 PM ---
    She is flawed, but she is a fighter. She is a winner. She has conviction. She has courage. She is self-made. She is humble. She is the type of person I would want to go to "war" with. She speaks directly. She is honest. Most of all I trust her.

    The way Palin was attacked by the left and the media, made me support her to the max given the character she displayed.

    About one of you tell me what you see in President Obama.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2012
  3. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I might vote for her if she were to appear on Dancing with the Stars...but I think she is pushing for the next Celebrity Apprentice, where Donald has the only vote.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Sarah Palin humble? Only when the bear's got the gun pointed at her head.

    Oh wait, you must be referring to the tender Mama Grizzly moments and false sincerity act you conservatives confuse with reality.

    Or maybe you're talking about the dumbstruck expression on Sarah's face when she's been caught out not knowing what the fuck she's talking about. That's not exactly humility but I can see why you'd prefer to label it as such.

    At least you didn't embarrass yourself completely by putting "intelligent" on the list. Then again, I get the idea that you don't place as much value on intelligence as you do on gosh darn gumption and common sense.
     
  5. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    And it really did take courage and conviction to quit her job as governor in mid-term after realizing that she was now under a national spotlight.

    I dont know of any other losing candidate for higher office to demonstrate such courage and conviction in serving one's constituency.
    --- merged: Oct 31, 2012 4:40 PM ---
    Ace, I'll just make one comparison.


    Having been the subject or target of the most vile, racist, ignorant and unrelenting personal attacks then I can ever recall a public figure having to endure (certainly far more than Palin), Obama maintained grace and dignity throughout and never lost his sense of humor....rather then whine and wrap himself in the role of victim.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2012
  6. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    She's been known to paint her name in rather large letters on the sides of at least two buses.

    At least her larger-than-life portrait was painted on the side of only one.

    Does that count as humble?

    For what it's worth, if you ask me, it looks like the one without the portrait has her signature on it as though it's her own personal authorization of "We the People" and "One Nation Under God."

    Apparently there were a couple of SUVs too: Sarah Palin's tour a rolling menace - Kasie Hunt - POLITICO.com

    More broadly, you'd think any humility of hers would contrast more sharply to her hyperbolic language.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  7. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Old history. We know I am a Palin fanatic, we knew that in 2007 - nothing has changed. I also know how most of you view her. She did not run for national office I understand her decision and I respect her decision. Bottom line as it relates to the present is I do not trust President Obama, if anyone does, they should cast their vote accordingly. I trust that Romney will do what is best for Romney - getting the economy turned around if elected is good for Romney and will be good for me, so he got my vote.
     
  8. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Wait, are you saying you trust Romney on the basis that he stands to gain a lot financially if he can rig the economy a certain way to benefit business owners like him?

    You're voting for Romney based on your confidence in his self-interest?

    Fascinating.
     
  9. roachboy

    roachboy Very Tilted

    what's hilarious is that romney's proposals on the economy are, in fact, likely to turn the economy around--and head it directly into depression. that's because what he's actually proposing has a long history of being exactly the worst possible idea in a situation of economic crisis...and we're still in one, thanks in significant measure to the consequences of exactly the same economic ideology that romney is in a warmed-over version. anyone who knows anything about the history of capitalism in the last century knows that romney is a very bad idea even in economic policy matters, and that none of this personality bullshit that the aces of the world seem to latch onto in order to pretend that something else is the case is of any consequence.
     
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I like the take Paul Krugman has had recently on Romney's "plan":

    [A]s I’ve said before, Mr. Romney’s “plan” is a sham. It’s a list of things he claims will happen, with no description of the policies he would follow to make those things happen. “We will cut the deficit and put America on track to a balanced budget,” he declares, but he refuses to specify which tax loopholes he would close to offset his $5 trillion in tax cuts.​

    Actually, if describing what you want to see happen without providing any specific policies to get us there constitutes a “plan,” I can easily come up with a one-point plan that trumps Mr. Romney any day. Here it is: Every American will have a good job with good wages. Also, a blissfully happy marriage. And a pony.​

    So Mr. Romney is faking it. His real plan seems to be to foster economic recovery through magic, inspiring business confidence through his personal awesomeness.​


    But does he praise Obama? No. He states that Obama hasn't done enough.
     
  11. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    No. I think Romey has made the money he wants to make and is no longer motivated by money. I think he is motivated by his legacy, I think the shift occured when he took on the Olympics. Given the current state of the economy and his rhetoric I think he believes his Presidential legacy will be measured by economic growth.

    I think he made his position clear in the first debate. I think all people act in accord to their self-interests, who doesn't? I think it is important to understand another's interests when interacting with them - my view is related to the Dale Carnegie approach as outlined in Winning Friends and Influencing People.

    Do you understand what motivates President Obama? Not what he says, but what really is behind his words?
     
  12. Random McRandom

    Random McRandom Starry Eyed

    Yeah, Romney is so honorable that it's all about his legacy. :rolleyes:

    Leo W. Gerard: Romney Willing to Win Without Honor

    I expect most, if not all, politicians to stretch the truth, but the lies the R/R campaign has spewed is downright...dishonorable. Romney can bluff and bluster and keep trying to say he'll turn the blue states red, but I don't see him winning anything except possibly Florida and I'll bet they go Dem by a narrow margin. Hell, the fact that Romney has to come back to NC shows he's losing ground here and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if NC stays blue. This whole chant by the Romney campaign that they're expanding the map and they'll garner 300+ electoral votes -- yeah, I'm not seeing that math anywhere unless some new trend happens and happens fast. Ohio will go to Obama, Penn will go Obama, Minn will go Obama, Wisc will go Obama - Fl and Va -- who the fuck knows, but even if Romney carries those two, it's going to be a long and hard road to 270, much less 300.

    Keep talkin' mittens... you're making it easy for people.
     
  13. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Are we talking about the same Romney? I know it's difficult to keep track of all the faces of Romney.

    I think you're wrong.

    Yes, I too am familiar with How to Fool Friends and Manipulate People.

    Are you talking about enlightened or unenlightened self-interest? Are you talking about "rational selfishness" à la Ayn Rand?

    Not everyone's self-interest is the same. What is Romney's? What is his running mate's?

    I'm thinking something along the lines of instituting policy that will do what he promised in 2008. He most in the right direction for the most part, but he didn't go far enough in some respects and things turned out worse than we expected in other respects.

    I think Obama has learned a lot this term. I think that now the economy is relatively stable and pointing in the right direction, a second Obama term will likely put things on the right track as we'd like.

    As for what motivates him? I think he'd like to be seen as a president who rescued a nation from disastrous policies of his Republican predecessors, as a president who offered more to disadvantaged Americans than most presidents could hope for (i.e., access to health care, quality education, etc.).

    As Paul Krugman points out, Romney is too vague. I hope most Americans go with the man with the plan instead.
     
  14. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    What motivates exceptional people? What motivates people who have more money than they will spend in their lifetime given the lifestyle they choose to live? Have you ever thought about these types of things? I always find it interesting to talk to people who I respect about the trajectory of their life and the points where they change. Everyone I have ever talked to or studied has changed. One book the comes to mind that you may find interesting is the Autobiography of Malcom X, the trajectory of his life changed several times. the things that motivated him as a young man were very different than at the time of his death.
     
  15. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    According to his faith, becoming President of the United States will be the icing on the cake achievement necessary to attain Godhood and guarantee him his own planet upon his death. Now there's some motivation.
     
  16. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I think I am correct. I stated what I think underlies his motivation, you say I am wrong without presenting an alternative answer.

    Perhaps you don't understand it.

    Correct. In some cases people act in a manner that is not in their self-interest, but they think that they are or they may not know. It can be enlightened, unenlightened, rational or irrational. I would argue a vote for President Obama is an irrational response to doing what is in an American's best interest - some do so unknowingly. The interesting person is the person who knows the irrationality of a Presdient Obama vote, but does so any way. I think DC fits into this category - that is why I spend so much time trying to understand him.

    I think Ryan is still in that young man doey eyed phase, ala - Mr Smith Goes to Washington if you ever saw that James Stewart movie. I like young people with that fresh youthful outlook.
    --- merged: Oct 31, 2012 at 6:46 PM ---
    I have not considered that angle, interesting and may be more correct than my theory.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2012
  17. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK

    Yes, let's put the button under this young man's finger.

    [​IMG]
    No doubt.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  18. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    You are, at best, speculating. The alternative answer is that you're wrong.

    I understood it just fine, though I'm sure my reading of it varies from those who seek to gain something from it.

    Assuming you are right about voting for Obama (which is a stretch, as it is a faulty generalization), voting for Romney would seem even less rational based on the facts. What we are left with is perhaps to stay at home on Election Day.

    A vote for Romney is a vote for a party and a vote for a wildcard. It's even more hopey changey than Obama in 2008. There is little substance in Romney. What would one be even voting for exactly? "Tax cuts and jobs"? Sounds legit. Sign us all up.

    Idealism is always refreshing, but it rarely does what is needed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  19. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    [​IMG]

    Until he discovered new ideals and a new inspiration earlier this year after being selected for VP

     
  20. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Wow. How do people keep track of this shit?