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Politics The Donkey in the room...the Democrats today

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by ASU2003, Mar 1, 2015.

  1. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus Donor

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    What a completely idiotic shitshow between the Warren and Sanders campaigns.

    If the Democrats are good at one thing, it's self-implosion. Absolutely bizarre to watch.
     
  2. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ntent=link&utm_medium=website&utm_source=fark

    “What Democrat’s must do when impeachment is over”

    Remember your duties
    Which means keeping the investigations going
    (Remember Benghazi and Emails, GOP???)

    Keep a check on T and his cronies

    Rein in spending
    Put out policy

    Do everything we put you there to do.

    Realize, y’all actually looked good and strong; Great PR
    The GOP looked pathetic and corrupt; terrible PR
    The rest was just a numbers game played with cowards.

    Don’t be cowards...be strong, be resilient, be bold.

    THIS is what we put you there for.
    Do your job. Protect us.

    This is just a battle, not the war.
    Keep fighting for US.
     
  3. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
  4. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect Donor

    Location:
    At work..
    I thought it was ignorant

    Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
     
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  5. omega

    omega Very Tilted Donor

    Trump is a criminal and a liar and a conman, So he does not like anything written down. He shreds his white house and presidential papers out of habit. He has learned this behavior from his 4000 lawsuits that have been filed against him. With nothing written down, it is harder to prove who is right, even though we all know that liars continue to lie. So she was actually being courteous by shredding his speech. She had the only copy. Mike pence was given a jesus coloring book instead of the speech, but he ate the crayons. He kept smiling because his diaper was colored like a rainbow. If Pelosi wanted to disrespect trump, she would have immediately put his speech in a file marked Deposition Evidence.
     
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  6. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect Donor

    Location:
    At work..
    and i am quoting pelosi...

    did it because the speech was a pack of lies ... what she called "a manifesto of mistruths."
     
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  7. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
  8. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect Donor

    Location:
    At work..
    my personal opinion...


    you may not like or respect who the POTUS is no matter who it is, but you need to respect the office. i think thats where alot of people differ.

    i personally didn't like Obama, but i respected the office of the POTUS.


    and i just saw that he was acquitted
     
  9. omega

    omega Very Tilted Donor

    In all seriousness, what does respect the office mean to you? When I was a state trooper, if someone told me that I was an asshole, that did not change how I treated them when enforcing the law. If they said I'm not going to comply, that was different. Then I exercised my authority to enforce compliance with the law. Same thing for the president. Saying the president is an idiot is perfectly within the rights of every American. But the Republican controlled senate failing to hold hearings for Merrick Garland, Obama's pick for the supreme court, was disrespect for the office. It was also disrespectful of their positions as senators and disrespectful for the millions of Americans who voted for them and expected them to uphold the constitution. So how do you define respecting the office?
     
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  10. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I dont think Pelosi's theatrics were helpful, but respect for the office must start with the person holding that office and having the biggest "bully pulpit" in the world.

    That pulpit should be used to unite the country, not divide the country by engaging in daily childish name calling of Democratic critics or describing media critics as "the enemy of the people" or referring to Republican "Never Trumpers" as "human scum" or suggesting that minority women in Congress should "go back to the country they came from".

    This is NOT respecting the office. Just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
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  11. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus Donor

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    I mean, I get why people are trying to explain to Ralphie that the issue lies much more with Trump's actions than Pelosi's.

    However, at least those keenly aware of politics should realize the bad optics of Pelosi's "open defiance" to Trump when ripping his speech up behind him while he's still addressing the audience. It came across as quite petty, so how Ralphie perceived the scene is how I'd imagine the majority of outside observers saw it (or in a similar vein).

    It seems that only the staunch DNC followers and/or Trump haters are patting themselves on the back for getting one over Trump - ignoring the massive difference in expectations towards the two, since everyone expects Trump to act like a petty idiot by default.

    The reaction (and defensive justification of Pelosi) seems to speak to a continued failure by the DNC crowd to recognize and manage the differing expectations accordingly. This combined with the Iowa debacle doesn't bode well for the election.
     
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  12. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    As I noted, I agree it wasnt helpful but I dont think you are reading public reaction accurately. Reactions will be as partisan as everything that comes out of Washington these days.

    Nationally, Pelosi is as unpopular as Trump, with a net negative approval rating. But she is not running for a national office. Her primary goal is to maintain or expand the Democrat majority in the House.

    Much of the campaign against Trump will focus on character issues in the same manner as the 208 midterm elections, where it was a successful strategy, but expanded even more. The target audience are those Independents , particularity women, who held their nose and voted for Trump in 2016 but have since expressed real concerns about his character. Will it work? Way to soon to tell.

    Pelosi has shown that she knows how to play Trump better than anyone.

    In the end, I would love to see more civility across the board, but that wont happen anytime soon.

    BTW, it wasnt "while he's still addressing the audience" but after he concluded his remarks.
     
  13. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Unfortunately, I’m going to have to respectfully disagree here.

    They have tried repeatedly and for years respect, fairness and decorum...it doesn’t work.

    Mr T and much of the GOP...they just keep trouncing on whatever they want, whatever they can get away with.

    T stood there, supposed to be representing EVERYONE for literally the State of the Union
    And used it to tear into whomever he didn’t like
    (including Pelosi’s state)

    The GOP Senate majority was about to let him off of a Constitutional crime, with sham tactics, just so they can get their own way
    (which they’ve done again and again with unprecedented audacity and no consideration to fairness)

    There’s a time to say enough is enough

    When a man is wholly lying with every word
    Who you know is a criminal
    Who is tearing apart all your nation’s laws for convenience and enrichment
    And a group allied with him is pulling every stunt they can

    Now is a time of standing up
    A time of symbolic resistance (tearing of the papers)
    And REAL resistance
    And to truly SHOW your anger and disdain

    The man is scum
    He will always be scum
    He got in by luck and manipulation (both inside & out)

    And the Dems will now resist with EVERY law, policy, method, protocol and with words...great and bold words.

    They’re angry and have every right to be.
    They have a known criminal in power and know they need to stop him...period.

    The time for decorum is over.
    Fair maybe, Law definitely
    It’s going to be a political war.

    And the GOP will be shocked
    Because the current Dems know how to play the rules better than them.

    Don’t be surprised
    No holds barred now, no handshakes
    Why would you after someone spits in your face repeatedly???

    And yes, it’s sad...unfortunate...and a shame

    But do you blame them?
    Should they REALLY just keep taking it?
    Should they allow what they know to be the law...fall?
    A liar lie?
    A criminal do crime?
    Bullies keep bullying?

    Nope
    Now is a time for appropriate anger
    And acting on that anger
    With words, symbols and laws
     
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  14. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect Donor

    Location:
    At work..
    im not saying we cant have freedom of speech... if someone hates the POTUS its their right to say that. that is part of what makes the US the USA... my outlook is this... for example i didnt like obama, yes i voiced that. but he was the president. i respected the white house im not sure how to explain it. i was raised to respect people with authority and my elders... its hard for me to explain.

    here is my example.... i am a mason. a few years ago i did not like the worshipful master (head man in charge) but i respected the seat that he sat in. at the end of the day whatever he said went. i never did anything to sabatoge him or to make him look bad even though i didnt like him.

    I dont keep up to date with politics and that is my fault. so for someone (like me) who watched the state of the union, and saw what pelosi did, not knowing all the facts, it looked bad. Think about how many people just watch the important stuff and know nothing else. I personally know enough to be dangerous. :D:).

    perception is reality, meaning that if someone just sees what she did and nothing else they will have a bad perception of her. i herd somewhere yesterday that her legacy will be her ripping up the speech. people remember the stupid things they dont remember the important things. If you see me after work you would think i was a homeless man because of the clothes that i wear after work. (so they dont get dirty) but that would be their reality of me.

    i know that none of that may make any since...
     
  15. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    Gallup has a relevant poll out today on who the public favors in influencing the direction of the country...Trump or the Democrats in Congress. By a small percentage, the public prefers the Democrats in Congress (49% to 43%)

    Public Tilts to Favoring Congress to Influence U.S. Course
    The partisan results are as expected. 89% of Republican voters prefer Trump; 89% of Democrat voters prefer the Democrats in Congress.

    It is the other voting demographics that should worry Trump and Republicans in Congress.
    • Independent voters prefer Democrats in Congress over Trump by a huge margin, 53% to 35%
    • Non-Whites (minorities) prefer Democrats in Congress over Trump by a margin of 71% to 21%
    • College educated voters - big margin for Democrats - 54% to 36% and non-college graduates prefer Congressional Democrats - 47% to 46%.
     
  16. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus Donor

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    I can't reasonably claim that I definitely have a better feel of the landscape than you, so the only input I can make is my perception of the situation. From my side, it appears that most casual observers would see the act as negative and petty.

    The problem is that she is the de facto leader of the Democrats in the public eye (nobody knows who the fuck Tom Perez is), and No. 3 to the position of CiC behind POTUS and the VP. Her actions don't reflect solely on her, and especially with her followers cheering and lauding her, it casts a shadow over the entire DNC.

    I can only suggest to carefully consider whether the existing analysis is spot-on or whether there may be underlying issues or biases during data collection/compiling that may prevent accuracy. I cannot tell you how many times a technical expert (from corporate to world-leading experts) assured me with 100% certainty that data collection was perfectly setup only for some surprise unknown/overseen variable to pop up and throw a monkey wrench into everything. By default I view ALL data-based analysis with room for massive error - especially when it involves humans as opposed to sensors/databases.

    These are solely my limited and continuously-adjusting assessments, but I see the DNC and their leadership successfully alienating internal factions and casual observers/independents alike. Take this as an example.

    The DNC continuing their string of mishaps fuels the giant misgivings that still linger in the Sanders camp from 2016 and should not be taken lightly. The impeachment acquittal will ultimately look worse for the Democrats than for Trump (from the simple fact that years of investigations didn't culminate in successful conviction; the details don't matter to the average person). Pelosi's personal rivalry with Trump comes across as the sophisticated, intelligent, value-driven party being forced to play on Trump's terms and level of vitriol. @rogue49 's comment symbolizes perfectly how an outsider (even from the inside) sees the loudest faction within the Democrats: unable to maintain composure or reason, and entirely giving into their feelings of resentment and frustration - which one would connect with the general sense of nastiness that surrounds Democrat politics, as was seen in the debates (Gabbard vs Harris; Warren vs Sanders)

    We're in the middle phase of the election now, but so far it's not looking good. The DNC looks like a giant mess, and it appears the conditions are ripe for them to self-implode again and end up losing a perfectly winnable election.

    Most people will not have seen the actual video, but instead a GIF or image with a caption, and the superficial perception for those will absolutely be of an immature, petty act done behind his back while addressing the audience - regardless of the validity of her reasoning.


    For general reference: I am a center-left moderate (European version), so my alignment is mainly with Sanders who apparently is considered a hard leftist in the US.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  17. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I think you are putting way too much focus on one act by Pelosi that will blow over by week's end, only remaining an issue for Trump supporters.

    Again, while Pelosi has high disapproval in public polls, it means little given that her constituents are one district in California and the Democratic caucus in the House.

    Beyond her constituency, as I noted in a previous post, Independent voters prefer the House Democrats over Trump by a wide margin in setting the direction of the country. Her action at ther SOTU wont change that.

    Also reported today was the fact the House Democrats are killing Republicans in fund-raising, particularly in the last quarter of 2019 ,suggesting that there was little adverse impact of the House impeachment of Trump.

    House Democrats drowning GOP in money chase
    With all due respect, I think you are overstating what most of the public thinks or cares about Pelosi. Trump supporters hate her; Democrats, for the most part, are proud of her as the de facto party leader and there is nothing to suggest that Independents give any thought about Pelosi when voting for president or their respective member of Congress.
     
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  18. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    The problem is that the GOP will use anything as a false equivalency now. Trump does 10,000 horrible things a year, but the one time Hillary calls the conservative base deplorable or Pelosi tears up some paper and the GOP freaks out. Who cares if they disrespected Obama for 8 years, and the guy who lead the GOP to become the hate filled party that it is got a medal at the event. (Rush was defeated for a day or two after Obama's win in 2008, but he sounded like a person organizing the pre-cursor to the Tea Party soon after.) So I think it is hypocritical for the GOP to say anything about it.

    And they better get used to it once they aren't in power and the Democratic President does what they want.
     
  19. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus Donor

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    @redux I'm actually not assigning a lot of importance to Pelosi's act at all. The simple point is that the optics of it are bad, the justifications for it don't help, and that it's just another in a string of unfortunate events, which ultimately culminate in a negative view towards the DNC as a whole. The act alone wasn't particularly significant, but the key point I was making lays with the middle paragraph of my previous comment.

    A continuation of this pattern of actions/mistakes I do not see as a rational approach towards winning the election, and instead would be entirely borne out of emotional thinking stemming from resentment/frustration - which is why I was making reference to the mentality of Rogue's comment, as it displays the underlying issue at hand. I personally see it as a pretty good path to end up with a repeat of 2016 - which is why I personally hope Sanders makes a breakaway happen soon and becomes the clear candidate, as out of the current candidates he appears to be the only one that has broad appeal to the Democrat factions while being able to draw independent and conservative moderates as well (despite his 'leftist' label).

    Whether you choose to include my viewpoint in your internal determination is of course entirely up to you. I'm not particularly interested in swaying anyone, just dropping my perception of things in here.
     
  20. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    The other part of this is 45 tears up all of his papers, so much that there is an entire department that has to tape them back together again.
    The very law they are trying to charge Pelosi with, he is breaking every day and they are paying people $60,000 a year to tape his papers together.
    Every fucking day.
    Not once, at a speech, every day.
    Meet the guys who tape Trump's papers back together
     
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