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Politics The Politics, Economics, and Ethics of Hunting

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by Baraka_Guru, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. arkana

    arkana Very Tilted

    Location:
    canada
    No no. Clear version:

    1. Omega claims that he needs meat as an omnivore. I'm also human and don't need meat (or at least haven't in 6 years) so think it's hilarious when humans claim they need an omnivore diet. Because, you know... I am typing this and as far as I know I'm not dying.

    2. I agree that animal protein is an efficient macro-nutrient but that we eat too much of it.
     
  2. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    Oh, I see. I must have missed a post. Oops.
     
  3. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    Plants have been shown to show responses to music and the spoken word. I used to pump music out to my garden all the time. So you know they don't feel pain how? Read some of Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose, research and get back to me.
    --- merged: Nov 14, 2013 at 1:38 PM ---
    We're all dying dude (dudette?) Life is fatal... no one gets out alive.
    --- merged: Nov 14, 2013 at 1:43 PM ---
    You know Oregon has no such system. On occasion when wild game is hit and killed a game officer might take it to the local prison where it is suppose to be fed to the prisoners. More often then not, in my experience, the staff divide it up based on who's senior at the time it arrives. Another PO recently told me they've started allowing food banks and soup kitchens, if so I feel better about it going there then the DOC.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2013
  4. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    I'm human. You know, the species of primates that walks upright and eats everything. You can choose to withhold certain types of food, that's your choice. I do eat too much meat, but I also know that going vegan would increase the suicide rate. At least by one.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    I wish I had been able to reply to this thread earlier.

    I'm going hunting next week. There are many reasons why I do it, and many secondary reasons why I have a clean conscience doing so. For starters, I really enjoy venison, as does my wife. Each year we carefully ration out how much we take out of the freezer and when so that we can spread it out through most of the year and stretch it as far as we can. It is hormone and antibiotic free, naturally raised, lean, and one of the more healthy meats available. I also enjoy the time in the woods, taking a couple of weekends away where the cell reception is bad and the computer is at home. One weekend a few couples go up and we bring our wives. Another of the weekends it is just guys. Both weekends are fun for different reasons. I would be lying if I denied that some part of the enjoyment is primal and strikes a manly nerve of "yeah, I got that food personally". But I can honestly say it has nothing to do with the kill, or any type of blood lust. I am not a gardener, but I would argue that the satisfaction I get from sharing some really good venison with friends and family is parallel to that when someone who has a bounteous garden shares some of their produce with others. I will also comment, as I have many times before in the Food forum, that my feelings about quality meat extend to the stuff I purchase as well. I do my best to support local farms. I buy a side of beef each year from a friend who is a farmer. We get eggs from him as well. We regularly visit local farmers' markets for produce and meat. I actually stopped at lunch today and spent a considerable amount at a small town grocer along the IA/IL border that sources all of their meat locally, mostly from small farms. For both the animals I hunt, and the beef I purchase, I use a small town, family owned butcher to process for me. I do that because I trust their practices, and because I feel it is important to support small local business, which both the farms and butcher are.

    As to some of the secondary reasons I would argue it is ethical, or that it doesn't bother my conscience, there are many. First and foremost is that I consider myself a very ethical hunter. The land I hunt on is owned by a close friend, and all of the other hunters allowed on that land are friends of mine. All of us strictly adhere to the laws and regulations, and all of us are focused on ethically harvesting the animals. In fact, the owners of the land enforce even stricter rules than the law requires to ensure that, and we all abide by them. I personally have not ever wounded an animal without having killed it (so far always with the single first shot) and collected it for the meat. As a group, if a hunter has shot an animal and can't immediately find it, we all drop what we are doing and join in the search until the animal is found. Sometimes up to 5-6 of us have foresaken half a day's hunt of our own just to find another hunter's animal so that it does not go to waste. I can assure you that one of our top priorities is caring for the land and the animals on the land in a responsible way. Most hunters I know are very environmentally focused and do their best to respect the land that they hunt on, and even the animals they hunt. Another practical reason is that man has mostly eliminated all of the top tier predators in the areas I hunt, and has turned most of the land into farmland. This gives an abundance of food to animals like deer through most of the year, removes all of nature's ability to control population through most of the year, and then leaves too many of them around in the winter when those man-made food supplies are gone. Aside from the damage to property and human life caused by car accidents and the like, overpopulation of deer can actually lead to them suffering starvation or death. Without the tens of thousands of deer harvested in my state each fall, many of those deer would die anyway, but in a gruesome and inhumane way.

    Finally, I would argue that a deer that lives a life in the wild for however many years, then dies almost instantly without usually even knowing what hit it, lives a much better life and has a more humane end than almost any livestock animal. If you are a vegan and have an issue with hunting, fine. I don't share your feelings, but I can respect that. If you eat meat that is store bought, then you say you think hunting is unethical or inhumane or not right, I personally think you are misinformed or uninformed. We used to have a Halal slaughterhouse not too far from where we lived before. I heard the screams and cries of the animals being lead to slaughter even in what was supposed to be one of the most humane slaughterhouses around. I can assure you that the deer I shoot suffer less than the animals killed in even the most ethical of meat processing places. They aren't purposefully fattened up, loaded on trucks, inhumanely transported for hours or days in the back of a semi, unloaded in an environment where they can smell and sense the blood and death, then killed. I get it if you don't want to pull the trigger yourself, and I have zero issue with that. To be honest, before I began hunting I pondered that question myself, and I told myself that if it bothered me to do it when I shot my first deer that I would stop. It ended up not bothering me to do it, but I respect that it might for some. However, I vehemently disagree with you if you tell me you buy store bought meat because it is more ethical and humane than hunting.

    As to some of the comments about hunting being okay for those in economic need only, or that many are forced to rely on that to supplement their food supply, I'd again say you are very uninformed or misinformed. It is expensive to hunt most of the time. First, you have to have the land. Very few people give permission for hunters to hunt for free anymore. So typically hunters have to own a considerable amount land themselves, have friends/family who own considerable amounts of land, or pay expensive leasing fees for access. Second, guns, ammo, and all the gear (even the basics) are quite the investment. Third, the fees to get the proper licenses and tags are not always cheap, though it varies by state. This also means that the limits imposed by the state as to the types and amount of animals you can harvest severely restricts your ability to make it pay off economically by using hunting to supplement your diet. If you can only harvest 1-2 deer, the amount of meat you get off of that versus the money invested is not cheaper than buying cheap chicken and hamburger at the store, not by a long shot. Third, the amount of time needed for successful hunts makes it economically a loser. If you spent even a small fraction of the hours and days most hunters spend (or would have to spend to stock a freezer with meat) doing even low paying jobs, you'd be ahead money. And that is all assuming you have the means and ability to process the meat yourself, otherwise you will be paying for that as well. I hunt cheap. Let's say I subtract out all the money I've spent on guns, ammo, boots, cold weather gear, etc. Let's pretend I inherited a gun, my job requires me to have cold weather gear, and all I have to pay for is my tags, my processing, and a minimal fee to access some land. I'd still be somewhere around $5-8/lb for the meat. And that is assuming the hunt is successful, assuming I'm not taking time off of work to hunt, and assuming cheap prices on everything else. Hunting is NOT about saving money for almost anyone who does it legally.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    You seem to be fairly exceptional, which I alluded to previously.

    I've spoken to a number of hunters as an adult, and when I was young, and we used to go fishing, we would often see and speak with hunters while we were out by streams and lakes. I have run into one or two thoughtful, careful hunters like yourself, who go out, get one animal per season, and use the thing up, bones and hide. But the vast majority I have seen seem far less thoughtful, very clear they were there to take part in a sport, and many spoke of having to put two or even three shots into an animal to kill it. They took what meat they wanted, and stuffed the heads as trophies. I saw many of them drinking beer while they were out hunting, which I can only suspect factored into their inability to kill an animal instantly, with a single shot.

    If there were some way to guarantee that non-subsistance hunters were thoughtful, careful, took one animal apiece, and used the animal completely, I would probably be more inclined to cut hunting slack.

    I also found, in speaking to hunters, that a lot of them were gun nuts. They kept all sorts of weapons, which they gleefully described and related to me, none of which sounded particularly convenient for killing an animal for food. I particularly recall one gentleman out hunting deer who related to me (can of Budweiser in hand, I might add) his joy in having recently procured an M-60. I cannot imagine what use in hunting a 25-pound belt-fed machine gun might have, since it seems likely that not much would be left of an animal killed by such a weapon. But it seems clear to me that for many hunters, hunting is a way they have to justify their obsession with guns, especially weapons that appear to have little value in securing game for the pot, unless the game in question is a squad of Marines.

    If the United States was not plagued by the glorification of firearms, and the loudly-proclaimed right apparently granted to us by our muzzle-loading musket-bearing forefathers to own high-end military-grade assault weapons, I might be inclined to cut the culture of hunting more slack.

    If you will say that you, and some others you know, are not like this, I will gladly believe you, without doubt. But I find it hard to believe that most hunters do not contribute to these problems within our culture, to one degree or another. And so, while I regretfully admit that my desire (undoubtedly to remain unfulfilled) to curtail hunting and severely curtail the accessibility of firearms probably would end up tarring some good people in together with the bad, I think reducing the recklessness, indifference to bloodshed, and love of weaponry for its own sake that blights our culture would be worth it.
     
  7. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member





    I would argue that the idiots you describe are the outliers, and the hunters like @Tully Mars are the majority. I personally don't know anyone who drinks while they hunt. I don't know anyone who claims those types of weapons are for hunting (in most places it isn't even legal to hunt with weaponry like that). I only know of 1-2 hunters personally who do it for sport and the trophy and not mostly for the meat. And I spend a huge portion of my time around blue collar guys in the rural Midwest, so I'd respectfully argue that I'm around exponentially more hunters than you are. Almost every hunter I know, save 1-2 that I consider idiots, are very concerned with the environment, being ethical, and using as much of the animal as possible.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Plan9 FORMAT C:

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    Mm, I'd say you haven't been hanging with the right crowd.

    It's super easy to find the Fudds out there and write the whole thing off as drunken frat boys in camouflage with machine guns. As with anything in a "free" nation, you get to bitch about the negatives so that someone else can enjoy the positives.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    When first hired by the State of Oregon I had to do ride alongs and shifts in different types of closed and not so closed custody institutions. At the time I was not a hunter. My dad fished but never hunted, least not to my knowledge. So I didn't grow up around a hunting culture. During this training/trial period I spent three days with a State Trooper assigned as a game enforcement officer, probably the most sought after position with the Oregon State Police. The officer I was assigned with came off in my opinion as an asshole at first. By the end to the first day I realized a few things. One- he works alone, in the middle of nowhere often out of radio range and encounters often armed and hostile people daily. Two- he took seriously the effects of humans on the environment, folks dumping trash or poaching were spared nothing. That first day he took joy in confiscating expensive rifles and a 30K 4X4 while issuing fines worth thousands of dollars to a group of half drunk poachers. He got in a guys face, I'd not seen anyone behave like that since boot camp. He told him he'd seen him dump trash up a road we'd never even been on that day. The guy admitted and we followed him up there while he loaded the trash, which had some of the guys mail mixed in with it, back in his newer Ford hatchback. He left with a large fine and a hatchback that had to reek. On the second day we came across an old guy in beat up truck with a flat tire. We helped him get a jack stabilized under the truck so it could get off the ground enough to change the tire. The Trooper asked him what he was doing up on the road with such a rusted out old wreck. The man point to his bed and said "fire wood, got a permit wanna see it." "No, that's fine." At sometime during the encounter I noticed a what I thought was a deer leg sticking out from under the blue tarp the guy had over his firewood. Now at the time I was really clueless when it came to wildlife laws and the Trooper had made it very clear to keep my mouth shut and my ears open. I was just a spector in his life for a few days and he didn't seem thrilled about it much at all. So I didn't say anything. About 20 mins after getting the old guy back on the road we stopped on a ridge line and had lunch. While munching what smelled like a herring sandwich he asked me "so bull or cow?" "Bull or cow what?" "The elk in the back of the old guys truck." "Ah, I thought it was a deer and had no idea if it was the entire animal or just hoof and leg." "Nah, it's an elk, too big for deer." "So he has a special tag or it some special season?" "Yeah, poor old starving bastard season. He and his wife live down on _____ road, wife's just had cancer. The two of them wouldn't eat if he didn't hunt." Later that day we stopped by a trailer in the middle of nowhere. I figured he was going to tell them, as he'd told many others, over two weeks without a permit was a fine. They had a plywood attachment built on to their POS trailer. He grabbed a bag from behind the seat went up and knocked on the door. A woman and a young child came out. He told them "here's some taters, cooking oil and couple ham hocks. I'll be back in a few days to check on you."As he walked back to the truck I had a little grin on my face. He looked at me and said "shut up rook, I'm a hard ass and don't you forget it." The next day he seized a guy 15k boat for snagging salmon out of season.. with a big "go fuck yourself" look on his face.

    He worked those woods and knew every inch it seemed. He enforced the law as he saw fit and that's the way his territory was operated. I can't say I completely agree with him being the judge and jury all the times he did but I understood his reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  10. PonyPotato

    PonyPotato Very Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    I'm currently working for a market research study regarding firearms and ammunition. Most of the people buying both at this time of year are doing it to prepare for hunting, and it is not at all a cheap endeavor. So, no, hunting is not for those lower on the socioeconomic scale, as was already explained by @Borla. I did interview quite a few people who talked about hunting as a social event, including drinking, but most drink at the end of the day when it's too dark to hunt. During the day, you'd make too much noise and scare away any game.

    As for myself, I have not hunted, but I have helped process deer who were taken by an ex boyfriend who hunted. He and most of my friends who hunt use a compound bow - extends the season and, to them, felt "less artificial." Every deer he took was a single shot and down, and hide was donated, bones were given to the dogs, and I helped cut and grind the meat. I love venison and I'm more than okay with hunting if done well and where the animal is taken for meat. I do take issue with a novice going out hunting without having spent time and money learning accuracy with a firearm, as that's a recipe for an injured deer that won't be caught.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Borla, you are actually very exceptional. Especially your barbecuing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    But what if a bag of apples costs $15? A head of cabbage $20?

    What if shipping $200 worth of groceries to a remote area costs $500?

    If groceries for a family of three costs $500 to $600/week and hunting costs $150/day, I guess you need to do the math.

    Inuit organize widespread protest over hunger, food cost - The Globe and Mail

    When discussing reliance on hunting for sustenance, I was thinking mainly of Inuit communities. Although these communities have modernized a lot and rely less on sustenance for food than they did traditionally, many of the poorer families have food security issues. Due to the remoteness of the regions and the harsh climate, the cost of food is higher than we'd expect otherwise, accounting also for economies of scale. So you have poor families who might run out of money to buy (overpriced?) food and must find ways to fill the gap to bridge disruptions in cash-flow. It's these families who rely on hunting and fishing more so as a need.

    The cost of hunting has increased for them mainly due to the increasing costs of fuel for snowmobiles, so maybe they rely more on fishing. I think fishing likely makes up the lion's share of sustenance food anyway, but I'm sure in a place like the Arctic, not being able to hunt due to fuel cost is probably a pain in the ass.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  13. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    Your post leaves to to wonder what type of area you live and travel in. Most hunters in areas I hunt you wouldn't see during day light hours. If you did they'd be packing an animal out. From a couple hours prior to day light and a few after they're hiking to or from where ever their going to hunt. Guys driving up and down logging access roads with a fifth of jack in their lap hoping a bull or a buck loses it's bearings and wanders on to the road are not hunters. The last place I regularly hunted, over eight years ago now, the hunters entered the woods around 0330-400, would not enter an area if another truck were parked there, would move on to plan B. At around 1900 about 20-25 of is would gather at an intersection about 200 yards off the Hwy. We have a bonfire and share beer and hunting lies. I guess if you didn't know the group and dropped in you could mistake the conversation. some of the lingo might throw you. For example "I threw on my Romeo, hop on Sally and went for a looper, never did get close enough to kill the old SOB." Romeo's are slip on boots many use if they don't have time to lace up their regular hunting boots. Sally was a common name guys used to refer to their truck and a looper was trying to drive around to a spot they could enter the woods to possibly get a shot at a bull they saw from camp or the road. An outsider hearing that might be really confused but make no mistake no one in that group was not the same type hunter I am.

    The rest of your post is really a gun debate and I'm not engaging in that here. I will say when I moved out of Oregon I owned 17 firearms, loaded my own rounds. Now I worked in law enforcement and was on a rotation for the SERT team. so at least four of my weapons were tax write offs. The rest I owned because I like to shoot. I liked loading my own rounds and making my own mix of varying grains in different ammo. I had a "Lee Load Master" that would crank out a round with ever pull of the lever after the first four pulls. The first pull inserted the primmer, the second measured and poured the powder, third pressed in the round and the last sealed it. So I like shooting and I like firearms. If I ever harmed anyone it would bother me greatly. Most gun owners I know feel about the same. Many talk a big game, esp. the old farts I know, about "offing some punk who steps foot on my property." None of them has done anything other then ask why "the punk" was on their land and often helped them out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
    • Like Like x 2
  14. loquitur

    loquitur Getting Tilted

    Re hunting: I just don't get it. But there are lots of things I don't get. Doesn't mean that just because I don't get it, other people can't.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    I was referring to the other 99% of the population. There are outliers to almost anything.
     
  16. arkana

    arkana Very Tilted

    Location:
    canada
    BG I'm not convinced that just because hunting seems like a useful option for the poor, that they are actually doing it. Where is your evidence?
     
  17. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    I just remembered a story my sgt shared a couple months ago. His young son shot a bird with a bb gun, a swallow or something. So dad cooked it and made him eat it to teach him a lesson about responsible hunting.
     
  18. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    Sure it wasn't crow? I've had to eat crow on occasion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    you know it could have been. His two boys are only like seven or eight.
     
  20. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    What exactly is the photo in your Av? If I might ask.