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Politics The Torture Report

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by redravin, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    I know this was mentioned in another thread but I think it deserves its own thread.

    In plain English: The torture was far more brutal than we thought, and the CIA lied about that. It didn't work, and they lied about that too.
    It produced so much bad intel that it most likely impaired our national security, and of course they lied about that as well.
    They lied to Congress, they lied to the president, and they lied to the media. Despite this, they are still defending their actions.
    The rest of the report is just 600 pages of supporting evidence.
    But the core narrative that describes a barbarous, calculated, and sustained corruption of both our national values and our most fundamental moral principles is simple.
    We tortured prisoners, and then we lied about it.
    That's it.
     
  2. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Here's a good summary - The 10 Most Important Excerpts From the CIA Torture Report

    And you've gotta commend McCain for bucking many in his party to support the report's release (then if anyone in Congress knows torture, it's him...considering his own in the past)
    It's dividing the GOP - Link

    NYT is having a field day with article after article on it.
    Many of the CIA and other power players at the time...they're already in the middle of rationalizing it, trying not to back down.
    And it seems that Powell and GWB were kept unaware of the extent. (but I would guess that Cheney knew about it more than he let on...if not instigating it, but there's not been much mentioned about him so far...but there are a few pieces)

    The key is...the US should be better than this.
    Period.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Plan9 FORMAT C:

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    We're not better. Just different. And I think we should have grabbed the world by its pigtails and skullfucked it in 2002. By the time I was strolling The Mountains years later, the mood had changed to playing house, not war.

    When you're dealing with an international terrorist organization that manages to pull off one of the biggest attacks in human history, you have to take a step back and reflect on your failures and their successes.

    I'm of the belief that we should have been spending less time with interrogations and black sites and more time running roughshod through Pakistan instead of pretending they're a legitimate country.

    ...

    As far as the report goes, it's not exactly surprising. Hollywood has done a great job of filling in the blanks over the last decade. They even got the hummus thing right.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  4. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC

    When I say "better"...I mean in the context of some ethics. (although, I'd say you'd be right if you'd say we're splitting hairs between "torture" and clusterbombing places - pain is pain, death is death)

    However, we took our eye off the ball by refocusing on Iraq...not Afghanistan, which leads to Pakistan. (this is the primary reason, I believe...could be wrong)
    And the US is fairly concerned with Pakistan which has nukes...we only slowly learned what we could "get away with" going over the borders. (plus drone capability and logistics were not as evolved back then)
    Much less to say, it borders on an ally of India, who were concerned with provoking Pakistan, being blamed for our actions...then getting into a nuke war themselves. (this has been said in some media, I don't know myself, like you)

    The situation has changed over time, with various aspects...capability, logistics, technology, financing, personnel, what we're used to, what we're willing to try, what allies are willing to allow us to try...and so on.
    It doesn't just happen overnight...in politics and government...it's a long lift.
    IMHO, the first Gulf War was the quickest and most decisive war the US has pulled off...and I think it surprised our enemies and allies, how fast and hard the US could move if we wanted.
    But this was a VERY clear mission, no gray mess to resolve, black hats vs. white hats scenario...and then we left. Done. ...everything else has been either messy going in...or messy staying for a while.

    But going back to the topic...
    This was unnecessary and ineffective...taking our cues from overzealous and inconsidering powers that be...and consulting with agenda ridden and conflict of interest "Subject Matter Experts"
    Much less the classic messy enemy/racial/bigot stereotype scenarios of putting your targets as a less than human mindset.
    The means don't justify the ends.
    And leads down a long dark path which WILL sooner or later get out. (our enemies and allies aren't stupid...and we're not THAT good at keeping secrets that broad)

    We do our best, when it's clean & mean.
    In & out.
    And it turns out better ethically, politically, strategically, financially and most other aspects and angles.

    Pakistan's been a clusterfuck waiting to happen for a long time.
    Still is.

    And the US would be better if it avoided dirty...including torture.
    Not better, as in superior...better as in productive and clear-minded.
     
  5. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Considering that it is pretty clear that no one is going to be prosecuted for the crimes outlined in this report.
    After all the two men who were paid 81 million in our tax dollars to set up the program were given blanket immunity.
    I like the ACLUs suggestion to the president which is to issue pardons to the people involved including the former president.
    This way they will be branded as criminals but the results will be the same.
    And perhaps, just perhaps we won't go down this fucking road again.
     
  6. Plan9 FORMAT C:

    Location:
    This Island Earth
    Relevant: What torture?

    ...

    Well, 81 million dollars is chump change when you look at the amount of money we dumped into a completely unnecessary war in Iraq.

    The hilarious part here is that at least you can say that this whole torture atrocity was directed toward the productive theater.

    ...

    Hah, I like that... pardons. "You did a very bad thing--you have to acknowledge that--but nothing will be done." Subtle yet satisfying.

    ...

    We have always been at war with Eastasia.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  7. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    • True, everything is relative...and they DO do torture better than the US currently. (I think we did the slaves and American Indians up right...but let's not bring up the past...we'll move on)
    • True...Iraq was the definition of mismanagement...it's like the folks who did up the Vietnam War missed the "old days" of political fuck-ups.
    • Actually, to give them the benefit of the doubt...I don't think it was theater, like ISIS is doing with the beheadings...just really bad over-enthusiastic "let's get them" attitude after 9/11 (that and "they don't count" mindset)
    • Unfortunately, this is typical CYA for the CIA
    • Wha??? :confused:
    BTW...don't think of me as some type of uber-liberal muckatee muck...I do believe in the use of force and military...and projection of power.
    It's just that we have to do it clean. (not clean as in no death or destruction, I'm not naive, just do it focused and efficient...and wrap it up quick)
    Have a good reason too...pretty clear.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  8. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Liberty, as we all know, cannot flourish in a country that is permanently on a war footing, or even a near war footing. Permanent crisis justifies permanent control of everybody and everything by the agencies of central government.​
    —Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I give credit to the one Republican who has spoken out about the excesses and cover-ups of the CIA and Bush administration. One who knows first hand about torture.

    "I rise in support of the release, the long-delayed release of the​
    Senate Intelligence Committee’s summarized, unclassified review of the​
    so-called enhanced interrogation techniques that were employed by the​
    previous administration to extract information from captured​
    terrorists."​

    "I believe the American people have a right, indeed responsibility, to​
    know what was done in their name, how these practices did or did not​
    serve our interests, and how they comported with our most important​
    values."​

    "What might come as a surprise not just to our enemies but to many​
    Americans is just how little these practices did to aid our efforts to​
    bring 9/11 culprits to justice and to find and prevent terrorist​
    attacks today and tomorrow. That could be a real surprise, since it​
    contradicts the many assurances provided by intelligence officials on​
    the record and in private that enhanced interrogation techniques were​
    indispensable in the war against terrorism."​

    "I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will​
    produce more bad than good intelligence. In the end, torture’s failure​
    to serve its intended purpose isn’t the main reason to oppose its use.​
    I have often said and will always maintain that this question isn’t​
    about our names, it’s about us. It’s about who we were, who we are,​
    and who we aspire to be."​

    As opposed to chicken hawk and chief torture advocate Dick Cheney, "It is all hooey."
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    I don't agree with McCain on a great many things but on this he speaks with great authority and I'm willing to let him be the voice.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  11. genuinemommy

    genuinemommy Moderator Staff Member

    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  12. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    That is what bothers me about this report. I see it more as a CIA vs DOD battle. The American public wanted to see the military come in and wipe out the bad guys with guns blazing and bombs blasting. Who cares about the casualties on their side as long as it isn't a bus full of school kids? Yet, the CIA was supposed to be the ones who could infiltrate, listen, blend in, and take out the bad guys covertly. Find out about the plans and who were the organizers and workers. Expose the leaders as frauds and hypocrites, and get the locals to fight for something better.



    I think Hollywood does a better job at it. The TV show, State of Affairs has a floating prison in international waters. That can't be that hard to figure out how to do that. Use an old aircraft carrier or a new boat constructed someplace else if they wanted to not have it be an American vessel. Maybe that nuclear powered container ship, but with a runway to be able to handle flights. Instead we have Gitmo, some place in Poland, and whatever else is in the report. If the CIA didn't want congress to know about what they were doing, that would have been a much better concept.

    But the treatment of the prisoners/enemy combatants was pretty bad, and shouldn't have gone that far. They should have followed the Geneva Convention. Or at least tortured them with Justin Beiber videos and MmmBop over and over. Maybe use science and modern thinking to shred their religious beliefs. For $81 million, they should have come up with a much better way to psychologically torture these guys without touching them.

    It also shouldn't be that hard to have quick trials to prove their guilt or innocence, even if it is a military tribunal. They might have been able to get more information out of them by making them think they could be released earlier if they provided real information.

    It looks like Dick Cheney will be on Meet The Press this Sunday. I wonder if he would use this defense. I'm surprised the CIA hasn't used it yet:


    View: http://youtu.be/9FnO3igOkOk
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Very Tilted

    Location:
    Yucatan, Mexico
    Hollywood... You want me on that wall,pft. People eat it up like its reality.of course major crime investigations take just an hour to solve on the tee vee. And if it looks like the bad guys going to walk some "hero" detective yells"just give me ten min. With him Lt. And the viewers cheer when he goes I the room alone and beats the confession out of the "bad." Never seen it work that way in real life.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2014
  14. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    The impotent ends justify the imprudent means.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    I don't consider myself an expert on the subject but I have read a lot about mans inhumanity to man.
    One thing that seems to come up over and over is that long term torture like this is never about information.
    The countries that use it intend to break down the prisoner to the point where they no longer ever be a threat (like taking your tom cat to the vet) and then they release them as an example of what can happen if you fuck with the people in power.
    Was that the plan?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Cheney: 'I'd do it again in a minute'

    I have nothing.
    Perhaps he's just trolling us. (nah...he's just an asshole)

    And like my mom says, "No use being an asshole, unless you can prove it."
     
  17. redux

    redux Very Tilted Donor

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    The bottom line is we had an administration that ran amok unilaterally justifying torture against the will and intent of Congress.

    From 2002 internal DoJ memos to justify waterboarding and justify ignoring Geneva Conventions, which resulted in Congress responding with the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act that specifically defined "Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" to limit its application by DoD and CIA

    Ref Book - Detainee Treatment Act of 2005

    Followed by a Bush Executive Order that unilaterally redefines "Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" once again to justify torture and codifies it into law.
    Executive Order 13440

    To another attempt by Congress to limit prisoner treatment once again with a more specific law prohibiting waterboarding and similar treatments that Bush vetoes.
    Bush vetoes bill to ban waterboarding - Los Angeles Times

    To finally Obama issuing an Executive Order that revokes the previous Bush Executive Order.
    Executive Order 13491 -- Ensuring Lawful Interrogations | The White House

    That a future Republican president can revoke.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect Donor

    Location:
    At work..
    Im still trying to understand why in the hell they would release a report like that. some things are just better kept swept under the rug
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    That's something authoritarians would say.
     
  20. ralphie250

    ralphie250 Fully Erect Donor

    Location:
    At work..
    the way i see it as a blue collar man is now these countries see what we did to their people, and their going to retialiate