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Violent Crime and Self Defense

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Hektore, Feb 18, 2012.

  1. Bodkin van Horn

    Bodkin van Horn One of the Four Horsewomyn of the Fempocalypse

    I'm pretty sure that's not what I said at all, but whatever. That's cool. I like your fancy fontwork, guy.
     
  2. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    I don't think about being a victim of violent crime. It's just not a factor for me. I'm smart, I do all the things to avoid vulnerability that the media tells me to, yet I remain open and friendly with everyone I meet, whether they fit the stereotype of a 'potentially dangerous' sort of person or not. Thus far, this has worked for me and come the day that it doesn't there's not a lot I can do about it. I'm not about to carry a gun around in an attempt to maybe, perhaps be able to shoot myself out of a situation that may or may not happen. That's just not the way my thinking works. I don't fear, I don't worry about violence. When people try and tell me that I should, I see them as infected with fear. It makes me sad. My sister was the victim of a violent crime, a pretty brutal one, yet she doesn't carry around a gun or talk about fearing people on a regular basis. We just don't plug into all that media-driven paranoia. It's no way to live.
     
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  3. issmmm

    issmmm Getting Tilted

    What MM said ^
    And I grew up on the west side of Chicago (supposedly one of the most violent places in the country)
    Some of the news worthy gangbangers were friends, classmates, neighbors of mine, some were even family. As I approach 50, I can say I was only 'robbed' at gun point only once, and those guys were made to appologize.

    Stats mean dick to me

    just like political polls, they can be made to say what the interpitor wants them to say

    I was in those situations/places where you are likely to be vicimized and never was. Looking back, I think it was because I wasn't the victim/prey type. I don't see the need to carry. I'm not likely to be robbed or assaulted. I'm not super large or anything, I just don't walk around projecting the fear I'll be robbed or assaulted.
     
  4. KirStang

    KirStang Something Patriotic.

    Having lived in a pretty shitty part of Baltimore, I absolutely HATE having to dictate my movements because some gangbanger with a gun is having a bad day. That is part of why I carry. I should not be afraid to work until 10pm because I might get robbed after hours. I should not be afraid to take my nice car through a bad neighborhood because someone could try to carjack me. I should not be afraid to wear a nice suit because that makes me a target for robbery. If a big guy with a jacket accosts me at 11pm outside of my apartment and demands charity, I should not indulge him for fear that he'll try something.

    I want the option to push back, if pushed. That's really it.
     
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  5. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Oh statistics! Oh media reporting on statistics!

    Regardless, I do see all of this as coming down to odds.

    I live in Toronto, where the homicide rate in 2007 was 3.3 per 100,000 people, compared to Detroit (33.8), Chicago (15.5), Boston (10.3), and New York City (6.3). Even beyond those comparisons, 3.3 per 100,000 people is a tiny fraction of 1% (0.003%). Either way, these are all fractions of 1%.

    In Toronto the robbery rate also ranks low, with 207.1 robberies per 100,000 people, compared to Detroit (675.1), Chicago (588.6), and Los Angeles (348.5), New York City (265.9). Again, we're looking at a fraction of 1% (0.2%).

    Concealed carry in Toronto, of course, isn't an option. But I'm not worried. We have limited options for firearms in the home, but, again, I'm not worried. I don't have any weapons in my home besides whatever I can come up with as a makeshift option (interestingly, of these, there are many).

    With rates of being robbed and/or murdered so low, why should I be worried? Do I think about these things? Yes. I avoid dangerous environments. I purposely decided to live in a safer neighbourhood, and I lock my doors at night.

    Despite the likelihood of being mugged, I've thought about it. I would just give them whatever shit I had. I think this is better than rolling the dice and seeing whether I can take the guy out. I don't know who he is. I don't know what he's capable of. I don't know if he's on anything. I don't know how desperate he his. I might not know how many accomplices he has.

    If pushed, would I fight? Well, likely. However, if flight is an option, I'd take it. Discretion is the better part of valour and all that.

    But back to the numbers. I have other things to worry about. I have 45% chance of developing cancer and a 29% chance of dying from it.

    Over 5% of Canadian boys and men over the age of twelve have heart disease. Up to 90% of Canadians have at least one risk factor for heart disease (of which there are at least seven). As many as 28% of Canadian males die from heart disease every year.

    In 2009, there were approximately 5.9 fatalities and 678.3 injuries for every 100,000 licensed drivers in Ontario. If you have any idea of the injuries coming out of even the seemingly minor accidents, then you should know that the risk of lifelong chronic pain resulting from a car accident is high.

    So it's really a numbers game, this whole thing. I mitigate my risk not with carrying a gun, but with taking practical precautions to avoid situations that compromise health and safety. Besides the relatively low rates, after almost twelve years, I haven't yet been murdered or robbed in Toronto in large part because I avoid the locales, environments, or times of day (or a combination thereof) where these things are most likely to occur. So I do the first thing the OP article suggests: Principle #1: Avoid dangerous people and dangerous places.

    Basically, I've already mitigated my risk and will continue to do so. But in the unlikely event should any of these dangerous situations occur, I'd likely do what the other things the OP article suggests:

    Principle #2: Do not defend your property.
    Principle #3: Respond immediately and escape.


    I'm going to spend more time worrying about things such as dying from or being maimed by cancer, heart disease, and vehicle travel. There are other things as well that prove much higher risks to my health and safety than violent crime.

    For those of you who are into carrying a firearm with you at all times, are you taking care of these other risks? Certain cancers? Heart disease? I wholeheartedly recommend a well-balanced vegan diet.

    And, wow, I haven't even gotten into quality of life issues regarding mental and spiritual health. Maybe another time.

    In the meantime, remember: The universe is a dangerous place; other humans are just one tiny aspect of it.
     
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  6. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    I see people with paranoia around my town, and it makes me laugh. Our violent crime rate here is ridiculously low. Does that mean you shouldn't take precautions? Of course not. In my mind, it does mean you shouldn't worry so damn much about it, as long as you are smart.
     
  7. KirStang

    KirStang Something Patriotic.

    You'd have to consider too, that you're rolling the dice by being compliant with the hypothetical attacker. Some sort of weapon or defensive tool on your person gives you a modicum of control over the odds.

    With respect to the other aspects of my life, yes. I get check ups. I eat a balanced diet. I just finished exercising. I also buckle my seat belt and drive carefully.

    I agree though. Humans and the Earth is so tiny in the grand scheme of everything out there (I came to this realization after watching Discovery's Journey Through the Universe).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    There are a ton of variables. I'd like to think that even if I did find myself in a situation where carrying a concealed firearm made sense (like if I found myself living in some inner city areas in the U.S.) that I would still consider flight the better option than fighting. Look at it from the perspective of the assailant. Dude might want stuff to support a drug habit or feed his starving kids. Do you think he'd respond the same to you if you tried to fight him vs. trying to take off? Guy is going to get all defensive: It's you or him, right? Again, you don't know what he's capable of or who might have his back. If you try to take off, sure, he might want to stop you, but he might be as likely to "abort the mission" and take off. If I had to choose my risks, I'd choose the flight vs. the fight. If you can show me stats suggesting fighting is much better, I'd be willing to look at them.

    Good for you. I hope people are generally rational, but I know if they do things out of fear instead that they tend to make silly unbalanced life decisions. Regardless, I don't tend to make blanket judgements of people.

    Heh, I usually try not to think of such things, but I know I should. It's being awake vs. being ignorant. I think humans tend to avoid thinking too much about these things as a psychological defense mechanism.
     
  9. KirStang

    KirStang Something Patriotic.

    Take a quick gander at this video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz4tOc1GLgo


    In that video, a guy high on crack cocaine accosts the victim, asking for a ride. The victim refuses. The victim considered driving away, but had paid cash for gasoline, and didn't want to lose $40. As soon as the victim opened up his car door, the assailant starts attacking him, and is soon joined by another friend. The victim claws his way to his glove compartment, and shoots the assailant with a .45 as the second assailant flees. I think it may have turned out differently absent the firearm.

    I'll probably look up statistics later, but you know the old adage. Anyway, I don't suppose I'll change your mind, but it's worth thinking about the opposing side. If someone ripped open my car door demanding my car, all lights were green, and I could drive away, I'd probably drive away. But there's a myriad of circumstances and like I stated earlier, I like having the meet force w/ force option available, should I choose it.
     
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I wanted to point something out further. Buckling your seatbelt and driving carefully is great, but does this mean you drive completely without distractions and "by the book"? Have you taken a defensive driving course? Have you taken one recently? Do you avoid driving when you are sleep deprived or drowsy?

    Accident-related injuries can occur even while wearing a seatbelt and with airbags. Sometimes the airbags fail to deploy. Sometimes all the basic precautions will save your life but leave you with debilitating injuries nonetheless.


    Well, as the OP article suggests, having your assailant control your movements is something to avoid. If they want you to go somewhere or do anything besides give you stuff or whatever, there is a good chance they will end up hurting or killing you. In those situations, it comes down to responding quickly and getting away. So in your scenario, it might be best to drive away. Any of these situations demand a judgement call, but the basic idea is the same: What can you do to get away?

    I mean, if you're pushed into a corner metaphorically speaking, you're going to have to fight, but what are the odds of that happening day to day? Where I am, not bloody likely.

    I understand the argument "I like to have the gun option rather than not have it." But my argument is that it doesn't seem worth it where I am. I'd sooner carry a defibrillator—aging population and all that.
     
  11. SCBronco

    SCBronco Getting Tilted

    that is why most self defense classes that teahc defensive weaponry will tell you, that if you successfully defend yourself, once the smoke has cleared, and cops are showing up, you should relinquish your weapon calmly and assume a non threatening position, like laying face down on the ground with your hands behind your head. you ca explain yourself in the interrogation room.

    I agree with you though, if your not trained, savvy, or just plain street smart, then odnt carry one. dunmb people with guns scare me... plan9 does not, as most of the posts ive read lend themselves to extensive weapons training...
     
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  12. Hektore

    Hektore Slightly Tilted

    Doing "all the things to avoid vulnerability that the media tells me to" is a direct result of "think[ing] about being a victim of violent crime". Recognition that there may be risks around you, and that those risks may merit carrying a gun, doesn't make you paranoid nor does it make you 'infected with fear'; at least not any more so than the recognition that there may be merit in avoiding situations of increased risk in general. Both reactions grow out of the same logic of risk assessment.
     
  13. DAKA

    DAKA DOING VERY NICELY, THANK YOU

    Mugged? What the hell is that, a "soff" expression for assaulted/robbed? Mugging is something done in home hovies.
    "Be that as it may" after being mugged/assaulted in NYC I did get a CWP (concealed weapons permit), so after "carrying" for over 35 years NY and FL the ONLY time I ever had to unholster my weapon was a few months ago in Total Wine in of all places Boca Raton FL...we were in the store after dinner in Mortons Steak House to see if they carried the wine we just had at dinner, I wandered to the back of the store looking around, and was headed back to were my wife was being helped by a sales person...there was an "altercation" in progress because this T/P woman was harranging my wife that she took over the salesperson...so here comes the husband/boyfriend(?) who starts yelling at my wife...now I arrive and tell this guy to stop yelling at my wife, he then turns to me and starts on me...I in no uncertain terms tell him to get lost and we walk away...OK, so now we are on line to pay and these trash are still yelling, now at the sales staff, they leave the store and go to their car, now I see that they are headed back to the store...this looks like trouble, unholster the SIG and rack the slide, safety off and it's now in my pocket...fortunately they leave, we wait a few minutes and leave also, then these poor excuses for humans start yelling out of the car windows at us...this is as close to a confrontation as I ever want to be...but, having my weapon makes me feel that I can protect us ...to a certain degree..
     
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  14. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    I think that is a lopsided equation. There is a difference between a person who, to use one of Baraka's analogies, wears a seatbelt and follows the rules of defensive driving by rote and a person who will only drive 5 miles below the speed limit in the right hand lane because they are afraid of intermingling with the traffic. I would never own a gun, let alone carry one, because I don't think of self-protection to any extent more than knowing, by rote, to have my keys in my hand before walking out into a parking lot, telling my kids not to get into cars with strangers, locking my front door at night, etc., etc. They may originate from the same 'logic of risk assessment' but they represent vastly different attitudes towards one's vulnerability and the fear of one's chances of meeting up with a violent criminal. To me, if a person believes that their risk is great enough to carry a gun all the time, from my perspective it seems a little paranoid. I could equate it with someone who believes their chances are so great that they will be bitten by a rabid animal that they carry rabies vaccine around with them at all times.

    As for my statement about being infected with fear, it was made about people who try to instill in me their own fear of violent crime. I wasn't referring to people who carry guns in general.
     
  15. Hektore

    Hektore Slightly Tilted

    It may well be the case that, as you believe, you are not vulnerable enough to need to carry a handgun. I will readily admit that most people probably fall into that same category most of the time. And you're absolutely right that "They may originate from the same 'logic of risk assessment' but they represent vastly different attitudes towards one's vulnerability and the fear of one's chances of meeting up with a violent criminal." Those 'vastly different attitudes', however, may well be warranted. It is very likely the case some people are in quite a bit more danger than they realize, at least some of the time, yourself possibly included. That was part of the point I was driving at in the OP, a different way to look at risk and maybe convincing some people there might be more reason to protect themselves than they had previously imagined.

    Do you think that carrying a gun is never warranted, is it always a sign of paranoia?

    The question extends for other tools as well - guns aren't the only protection carried, you mentioned your keys and I've seen booths on college campuses where they hand out those little key-chain mace canisters like Halloween candy. I don't think the tool chosen determines the level of paranoia, only the accurate assessment of risk. And while you can hedge your bets with phrasing about carrying a gun 'all the time' that's not a very practical example. While there are certainly folks who carry their gun too much (are paranoid), I think there is clearly a sliding scale here where it could be worth it to carry often for some people.
     
  16. ChrisJericho

    ChrisJericho Careless whisper

    Location:
    Fraggle Rock
    I think you will find most gun owners on this board are in very good physical shape.

    In the summer I go on runs in lengths of 5-7 miles. I go on day hikes with friends that usually have elevation gains of 3000-4000 feet with roundtrip lengths of 7-9 miles. These aren't exactly ultra difficult mountaineering expeditions, but they are difficult for the average person to accomplish. In the winter I do p90x multiple times a week, my record so far for palms-away pull ups so far is 16, I would like to get up to 20.

    I think there is the misconception that people who conceal carry firearms are afraid of life and live in fear.

    I would argue the opposite. I would say that I carry a firearm because I love life.

    There are two notable events that happened in my area. The Tacoma mall shooting, and the Lakewood Police Shooting. In the Tacoma mall shooting, a guy on meth went into a local mall with an AK-47 variant and opened fire, trying to kill as many people as possible. In the Lakewood Police shooting, a convicted felon ambushed 4 police officers in a coffee shop and shot them all to death. While it didn't happen in my area, the "Hi-Fi" robbery/rape/muder in Utah is also particularly heinous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Fi_murders

    The point is, sometimes criminals aren't interested in your property. Sometimes they just want to kill people.

    Are these events statistically rare? Of course. However if you were in the Tacoma mall that day when the meth addict started trying to kill people, statistics were of little comfort.
     
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  17. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    Carrying a gun always paranoia? No, I think a lot of people carry guns simply because they like carrying them and/or exercising their right to carry. Not because they believe a criminal is just around every corner. Having the gun in that rare moment of real danger in which they may or may not get the opportunity to use it is more of a side benefit. Otherwise, I think there are people in particular lines of work for which carrying a gun is rational. But for the average person? No, I do not think it is 'warranted' to use your word by a reasonable risk of danger. That said, paranoia is not a phenomena limited to gun owners. People can have unreasonable ideas about any number of things, particularly when those 'things' are of personal significance. By which I mean, people who tend to like guns, tend to think they need them.

    I don't have mace on my keychain. By having my keys in my hand I meant that I do not walk through parking lots rummaging through my bag looking for my keys, ie not aware of my surroundings. As far as I know, items like keychain mace pose more risk to the owner (and children that may end up with them) than is offset by their potential effectiveness in warding off an attacker.
     
  18. Bodkin van Horn

    Bodkin van Horn One of the Four Horsewomyn of the Fempocalypse

    Interesting choice of events. The mall shooting is a situation where having an armed citizen might have resulted in a reduction in lives lost. The police ambush is a situation where four well-trained, armed (I'm assuming here) professionals failed to overcome one determined assailant.

    There seems to be this idea that by carrying a gun, a person is taking a stand, hence Plan9's comment about me not minding being mugged because I had a tangential concern about having to use a gun for self defense. In reality, how much of a difference does carrying a gun really make? If it makes you feel safer, well, feeling safe is important. But is there any evidence that, in the aggregate, people who carry guns are safer than the folks who don't?
     
  19. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    At this point, I would just like to add that I really don't care if people want to carry guns. When I was younger, I was a pretty avid gun control supporter. But as I've aged, that position has mellowed somewhat. As far as I'm concerned, if a person owns a gun and has proven enough knowledge and responsibility to obtain a concealed weapons permit, then more power to them. Whatever. As for myself, I don't have a shred of interest in owning a gun let alone carrying one with me. I may be unknowingly running in and out of dangerous situations on occasion but, to me, that unknown doesn't scare me. It doesn't strike in me enough fear to cause such a radical shift in my perspective that I start thinking about buying a gun. I realize this is different for others, and simply recognizing that difference doesn't mean I am judging them. What I take exception to are gun owners who try to convince me that I should feel afraid. Those folks can take their guns and shove them up their ass, figuratively speaking.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    So, basically:

    The TFP
    “My relative was brutally attacked but nothing bad has happened to me thus far, so fuck it.”

    ...

    Let me make it clear that my interest in firearms has more to do with the reason why I carry duct tape in my car than any type of hero fantasy. It comes from not wanting to be unable to help myself should a bad situation arise. If that bad situation requires duct tape, I’ve got it. If it requires a pistol, I’ve got that, too. I see the real root of the problem is that so many people today depend on others to help them with everything. Every little problem is something someone else should deal with. So much blame, so few solutions. We’re pussies. We get a flat tire? We call some blue collar minority to change it. Kitchen fire? Quick, panic! Somebody attacks us? Call 911 after and do the rape kit. I'm not real big on gambling, myself.

    Newsflash: The police and other law enforcement entities are not there to save you. They don't have precrime scopes capable of rescuing your ass. They're primarily there to do the paperwork after you get your ass kicked so they have a tiny chance of arresting your attacker a few years later or at least make sure your body gets bagged up after the carjacking. Fate, luck, Jesus and a good "Judo Chop!" or two are what you get in this life.

    To all those that don’t know and don’t care about defending yourself with a gun or pepper spray or a fighting position other than the fetal variety, that’s totally cool: Better you than me. The difference between us isn't who worries about things like getting shot while handing over their precious smart phone, it's who is better able to protect themselves so they can get home to eat Steak Ums, ogle Internet porn and engage in tired circle jerks.

    Me? I have no worries. Do I value my life more than you? Maybe. I'm willing to at least put some work into protecting it.

    I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up dying of a heart attack at 49 from too much office stress, anyway.



    These are the usual philosophy points but they have limits:

    Principle #1: Troubles often comes to us.
    Principle #2: I'm not a criminal psychic.
    Principle #3: Please define RESPOND.

    ...

    Don’t worry, Canada. This conversation is completely irrelevant to you because crime doesn't exist in Canada AND you have no legal self-defense implement options to exercise aside from maybe a sweet pair of Chuck Norris Action Jeans. So, yeah, you won't get mugged. Odds of a giant 'gator eating you in the bathtub are much higher. On the odd chance that you do get attacked, don't worry: you can't do dick about it. I'd make a quick reference to street crime in the United Kingdom, but that kinda shit is twice as tired as this thread topic and everybody is already totally made up. Liberal yuppie potheads vs. crazy inbred gun nuts. Those on the fence can enjoy the back and forth, though. The mods here keep the convo clean.

    ...

    True dat.

    It’s dangerous to go alone. Take this.

    ...

    In closing, I'd like to remind everybody that a weapon--any weapon--is just an inanimate tool. The actual thing that you arm yourself with? Guts.

    Sadly, those are in pretty short supply.
     
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