1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. We've had very few donations over the year. I'm going to be short soon as some personal things are keeping me from putting up the money. If you have something small to contribute it's greatly appreciated. Please put your screen name as well so that I can give you credit. Click here: Donations
    Dismiss Notice

Your parenting sucks!

Discussion in 'Tilted Life and Sexuality' started by CaptainBob, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm not saying I would have been; I'm saying it would have been likely.

    My father was a neglectful, absentee alcoholic, and my mother was an overbearing, manipulative, passive-aggressive depressive.

    Neither of them read to me. I don't recall my mother spending that much time with me directly. I guess it was up to my siblings and the television.

    As long as we attended school, we weren't encouraged to do much else academically. Behaviorally, at home, we were simply expected not to cause problems or make too much noise. I don't remember anyone ever being grounded, but I do remember a lot of rebellion.

    The result? My eldest sister went through college to become a nurse. My second eldest sister dropped out of college and now works as a retail sales clerk. My eldest brother barely graduated high school (his average grades were in the mid-fifties), but finally had straightened himself out and started a career as an oil burner mechanic in his mid-thirties. My younger sister only has a grade 10 education, and now she currently lives on welfare, is applying for subsidized housing because her $700 rent is too high, and is a single parent whose eleven-year-old kid is now under the guardianship of my sixtysomething parents. My younger brother dropped out of high school in grade 9. I think he might have his GED now, as he's attending a college program to become a chef in his late twenties.

    I only started trying in school when I took grade 13. I don't know what did it. I'm pretty sure it was the influence of my friends and especially a select few teachers. It certainly wasn't my parents.

    At least three of my siblings have been on antidepressants. At least two of them have abused alcohol for years. At least one has abused illicit and prescriptions drugs.

    And here we are considering having your parents read to you as a kid? Are you fucking kidding me? I would have loved just to have my dad sit down to watch the A-Team with me, preferably sober so that he wasn't a sarcastic hurtful asshole.

    So when I say that I likely would have been a lost cause if it weren't for my "communities," I don't say that lightly. Without the people outside my family, I would have had no real encouragement to apply myself. I certainly would have had far less inspiration. It would have been a crapshoot: Do I give in to my environment, or do I break out from it? I broke out from it eventually, but I'm not sure it would have happened if it weren't for outside influences.

    If we take the proverb figuratively, I don't doubt for a second that I was raised by my village.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Random McRandom

    Random McRandom Starry Eyed

    Instead of arguing semantics, why not address the issue that a lot of parents can't be bothered with their children or the upbringing and teaching of those children simply because a lot of parents feel some sort of resentment towards their own flesh and blood. Let's be honest, if a parent is negligent of a child, there is some sort of resentment and jealousy going on whether it's "I can't go out anymore", "It's too expensive" or whatever.

    I think we can look at Borla 's thread about his surprise party for his parents and understand that it's not always a village that will have the greatest impact on the child, but the greatest parents.

    It doesn't matter who is doing the raising and the rearing, if it's in a positive environment, that promotes learning and experimenting, the child is often better than being in a home with traditional name sakes who can't be bothered.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I suppose my argument is that I simply cannot overstate the importance of a quality public education system.

    When both parents and schools fail children, what's the likely outcome?

    It's great when kids have good parents, but even so, the kids will spend more learning hours each day at school than they will at home.

    Both parenting and school are significant influences. If a kid can't read well enough by the time they graduate grade school, I don't think the parents are the only failing.

    My parents didn't teach me to read and write. School did. Now look at me: I teach authors how to write.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. genuinemommy

    genuinemommy Moderator Staff Member

    I'm a little confused about this topic, and what conclusions we should get from it. Should people without ample time choose not to have children? Or maybe if they have children that they should be raised by someone else who would care more about their education? What about other aspects - are the children who are lacking in reading and math skills perhaps in posession of other skills that go unmeasured in an academic environment such as empathy, humor, personality, curiosity, creativity, or helpfulness? Are these children developmentally delayed because they are not getting adequate attention at home, or are they just simply developing differently?

    I don't have children. I don't interact with anyone under age 18 often. My sister has kids, but they're a couple thousand miles away. She seems to be doing a good job with them. She volunteers at their schools, helps them with homework, etc. The whole concept of having children and neglecting them is foreign to me. I can offer no solutions for this very real and growing social problem.
     
  5. Random McRandom

    Random McRandom Starry Eyed

    Baraka_Guru

    I certainly agree that school is a vital component of a child's learning and if that area is lacking, then it's highly possible the child will not be what he needs to be. This is why I spend good money on a private institution for my kids because the public system around here is severely lacking. However, other than social interactions, I think schools don't provide the real necessary component of a child's learning, and that's common sense, every day, mundane things. I knew a girl in high school that didn't even know how to pump gas. That's a serious failure on the parents and is why I allow my kids to be kids, but also take them along and show them how to do things. They'll both know how to change tires, pump gas, change oil, tie knots, shoot and handle guns properly and safely, and so forth.

    So while we can focus on just the academic disaster that is happening in America, the onus is not just on the school system, it's also on the parents. The parents can take time to sit down with the kids while their doing homework or hire tutors if needed. I taught my kids how to read before age 4, and both were writing their names and so on, and while they are expanding this knowledge at school, it's also up to the parents to help show how this knowledge can be applied. If the child gets the best education possible but doesn't see how it's applicable to life, then they will disregard it. It's up to the parents to show these things.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    genuinegirly: Those are good questions, but I think I'll address them later.

    Glory's Sun: Now you're getting into "life skills" or whatever you want to call them. I don't know how to pump gas or change oil. I just learned how to drive a car last year. I don't know how to handle guns, but I do know how to tie my shoes. My sister taught me.

    I can't say, really, what life skills my parents taught me. Maybe a few things about cooking or using a kitchen, but not much. I learned most of that on my own and working in restaurants. I think most of my life skills (however few they may be) I taught myself or I picked up from friends, jobs, and, yes, even school. School won't teach you how to pump gas or how to clean a lawnmower, but that's not really what it's for.

    I don't really know where I was going with this. Though this topic is really about academics.

    I seem to have made it, in part, about me and how I really need some serious therapy. Sorry about that.

    As you were, TFP.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Random McRandom

    Random McRandom Starry Eyed

    Baraka_Guru

    Yes it's life skills, but I'm sure you're not implying that academic skills are not also lumped into life skills albeit on a outside manner. What I was trying to really drive home is that it's up to the parents to show the children that school is not torture and the knowledge they are learning is indeed applicable to their lives and their futures.
     
  8. If you substitute socialisation as being important to the well rounded up bringing of a child, would that be an acceptable compromise word for village? It wasnt just the readin, 'ritin, and 'rithmatic that used to be important, it was also being taught how to behave properly in different social environments. I think we were taught the importance of manners and socialy acceptable behaviour more perhaps than is done today. Maybe by the time I become a granny, my view will change.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    chinese crested, yes socialization is important. It is one of the things that I see lacking from some home schooled children because they got the book part, but not how to deal with someone being an idiot or learning how to trade off between individuals and working on projects in groups.

    Baraka_Guru sometimes children learn what they don't want as adults. They see it in someone they want to emulate either in books, TV, sports, and they emulate such behaviors that are desirable. So while skogafoss didn't get taught good money management by her mom, she learned it on her own so that she could buy groceries she wanted and not just what was on the list.
     
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    That pretty much defines me, but I struggle to resist the same psychological patterns as my family/parents. My upbringing taught me that money was meant for spending, not saving. Since I had to finance my own post-secondary education, the past few years has been about having higher debt repayments than disposable income. In many ways, I view disposable income as "money I should be using for debt repayment." This is why, with a few exceptions, it doesn't feel like I really have a disposable income.
     
  11. CaptainBob

    CaptainBob Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Kingston, eh?
    I was a little pissed off that people seemed unwilling to teach their kids, even when they knew and admitted that they thought their kids were doing worse in reading and math skills than them at that age. I think this was the gist of the article I quoted.

    What the discussion evolved into, in my view, after some "personalization" from Baraka_Guru is that some parents are unable to help their kids, nor should they be the only ones. It takes a community. In some families, the grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbors may step up and assume some responsibility. The education system used to provide a caring concern for the child's progress, but don't seem to do that anymore.

    I'm wondering if some parents who are unable to teach their children would even allow others to teach them, or are they too proud to solicit or accept help? It some cases there is no support system available.
     
  12. genuinemommy

    genuinemommy Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks for the recap, Captain Bob... but I wasn't confused about your stance or the direction of the conversation. I'm more confused about the topic on the whole and how it would be best to deal with it. I'm wondering if it's even right that a parent who doesn't care about traditional education should be viewed as somehow inferior or incompetent. I tried to make the point that no matter what environment (save locked in a dark closet alone for 5 years) a child will learn something. If the parent doesn't care about literacy or math skills, who's to say the kid isn't filling their mind with something else? I find it difficult to believe that a person would actively attempt to destroy their child's future, as you seem to be insinuating. A parent who doesn't value the education they were given should not be expected to encourage their offspring to pursue such things.
     
  13. Random McRandom

    Random McRandom Starry Eyed

    genuinegirly

    I think you're taking this into an extreme level. While there are parents who will consciously attempt to destroy their children, many who don't take the time to educate or promote their children are unconscious of the acts they are committing. I don't have any sources for this, it's just a hunch that I have as a parent. I'm pulling this conclusion from my own childhood where my mother was conscious of the act and tried to destroy me, and my father did it unconsciously and it falls under the whole "I just wanted you to be good, I'm not a kid person". Most parents today are completely consumed with the pursuit of material status, that they fail to realize it's the time and the real interaction that will develop their children into what they need to be. Granted, a child will have to actually apply what they've learned and if they don't it's not the parents fault, but I would say that if parents are active and attentive to their children in a positive manner, the outcome is likely to be far better than the child who is pushed aside so mommy can check facebook yet again, or daddy doesn't have enough patience to show the child what they're doing and how they're doing it. Psychologists ( noodle or Fangirl can correct me here if need be--developmental psych isn't my area) often say that children will act out with people they trust the most. So if a child is great at home but acting up outside the home with friends or whatever, then there may be a serious lack of attention or development in the home. This is a blanket statement and is not always going to fit but for the majority, I'd say it's true.

    There are many parents that I would label as unfit to care for their children. If you're kid is 7 and is obscenely obese and it's not due to a medical condition, your child should be taken away. This has nothing to do with the current conversation, so I'll not flesh that out further and it's just one example, but I get pissed every time I see a Johnny or a Sally that is waddling around and they're so young.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Japchae

    Japchae Very Tilted

    You are correct. People in general push hardest, act most genuinely, and rebel against those that love them because they know that they won't leave them just because they're acting out. Children, too.

    Honestly, this thread is so annoying and the study so narrow that I don't feel like getting involved. There are at least 15 other variables that aren't taken into account and that pisses me off. Welcome to mass media, not science.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  15. Bodkin van Horn

    Bodkin van Horn One of the Four Horsewomyn of the Fempocalypse

    While this has sparked an interesting discussion, I just want to point out that unless you actually compare the intellectual abilities of children now with the intellectual abilities of the children of days gone by, you don't really have evidence supporting any sort of objective conclusion one way or another. The fact that parents feel like their children aren't as advanced academically as they were doesn't really mean much; recall bias can make questions like these totally unreliable. This adult portion of this poll could actually be measuring parental self doubt more than parental engagement. noodle sort of hit on this point while I was typing this response up.

    I suspect that this is another one of those "let's latch onto any old evidence that seems to suggest that kids these days are worse than I was when I was a kid regardless of how tenuous that evidence really is" things. Which isn't to say that good discussions can't be had, just that it might not be reasonable to draw any general conclusions from these poll results. Childhood education is such a complicated issue. So is parental engagement. Who cares what a random sample of brits thinks?

    Maybe kids are less capable now than they used to be. Or maybe their skill set has shifted. My 21 month old knows his way around both his parents phones. I couldn't work a camera when I was that age. Do we even need to memorize multiplication tables when cell phones are essentially standard issue and each one has at least a calculator in it? Don't get me wrong, I'd like my kids to know their multiplication tables, but I would also like everyone to know calculus. I believe that the world would be a better place if both of these desires were fulfilled, but I also know that plenty of people can live happy, productive lives without being able to multiply 6x8 in their head or integrate a polynomial.

    From the article:
    I want to know what the %s correct for these questions are for adults. I spend a fair amount of time on the internet, and misuse of "they're", "there" or "their" seems fairly common. I do it frequently and it stems more from sloppiness than ignorance.

    Really, though, I'd much rather produce a child with a surfeit of emotional intelligence than I would one with a surfeit of book smarts. Though ideally they'd end up with a lot of both.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. davynn

    davynn Getting Tilted

    Location:
    East coast U.S.A.
    I don't have children and so will disqualify myself from deliberating the points raised in the previous posts. Something does occur to me however ...
    A sound working introduction to the First Principles of Logic should be an educational requirement at the earliest reasonable opportunity in my opinion. The fact that our educational system doesn't teach children [how] to think, prompts me to speculate that producing people with built in bullshit detectors might be an undesirable outcome.
     
  17. SCBronco

    SCBronco Getting Tilted

    when i was in school, problem solving and logic was only taught to kids who got picked up into the gifted program... i was one of those kids, so i got it... if my kids arent getting it from thier school, then i will make sure they get it at home, regardless...

    its a travesty that it works that way, but, and a big but... parents should be taking a vested interest in their children's development. and IMO, you make time for that shit... if your a career oriented couple that runs 80 mph 80 hours/week, then you gotta make some sacrifices and change ur lifestyle... its not about you anymore, its about the kids. thus is the nature of life. just my .02...

    edit: BTW my kids dont run my life, but they did modify it... i just have to make sure i make time for everything... yes i get spread thin, but its an injustice to my kids not to recieve discipline and learning...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Was sitting in the lobby of the ballet studio where my daughter was taking lessons, and a mom sat down next to me with a 3 or 4 year old boy.

    The kid was sucking on a ring pop.

    The mom kept reprimanding the kid for not sitting still.

    Massive face palm
     
  19. davynn

    davynn Getting Tilted

    Location:
    East coast U.S.A.
    I agree SCBronco, it is a travesty that only gifted children would be given a working knowledge of The First Principles of Logic. While it's true that a gifted person might ultimately make better use of logic and problem solving abilities ... the children that need it the most are the ones that aren't endowed with innately superior mental abilities. Practical logic isn't "rocket science" ... and exposure at a formative age could have the additional benefit of actually increasing a child's mental capacity ... it's now known that I.Q. isn't a fixed quality.
    You definitely have a handle on your kids nurture and development. They lucked up.