Saving and investing money without the stock market or 'gold'

Luckily, I got out of CHK a few years ago. I had no idea of the shenanigans going on there.

But, my company beat Wall Street expectations by .01 cent, and is still raking in profits. But, some Credit Swiss guy downgraded us to hold from buy (probably because of the lack of growth potential), and it caused a massive sell-off. But, it's not like we aren't going to make a big profit next quarter too.

 

I know a guy who knows how to hit 10% yields on munis every time .

I'm pretty sure I'd be a horrible investor in stocks. The market is too irrational. Plus, fuck shareholder profits. The shareholder-first model drives idiocy and shortsightedness in corporate boardrooms across the world.

But what do I know? I'm in for 60k in unescapable loans from the federal government at 8%. Maybe if I hit my payments on time for ten years they'll be forgiven.

If I had money to invest, I'd invest with my conscience, which is a shitty way to plan for retirement.

 

I am starting to understand why the Occupy people are protesting...

Ousted Yahoo CEO Scott Thompson will get no severance - May. 14, 2012

Seriously, $333,000 salary for working at an established company for 5 months... Plus, the 7 million in stock already? But, at least he won't get a severance for lying to get the cushy job.

Then you have this:
49% of Americans aren't saving for retirement - May. 10, 2012
49% aren't saving anything? And ~56% have less than $25,000 saved for retirement.
Many have little savings as retirement looms – USATODAY.com

And not to get political, but this is what is wrong with the economy.
Dade Behring | Romney Economics | Mitt Romney's private sector record
How is a small part-time investor supposed to know if the big fish in the game are pumping and dumping companies? Hell, I don't blame the management of the companies for wanting to get bought out or acquired. Less work, possibly early retirement, or lots of money. But, it is screwing up the economy with less competition and roller coaster stock prices. Tax base for cities and local economies gos down, home prices drop when lots of people can't pay the mortgage, and unemployment costs. Let alone if you actually work for one of these companies and are expecting a steady paycheck, pension, or health insurance.

 

ASU2003 seems to be doing the standard angry prole rant thing here.

I guess we should all be glad that he isn't busting it out in CAPSLOCK.

...

So, basically, having Uncle Sugar pay for my degree makes me rich?

While it solves the -1 to 0 problem, it doesn't solve my 0 to +1 issue.

As a moron, why can't I just buy the stocks I want and sit on them?

My tiny raisin brain thinks Coca-Cola is going to be here a long time.

Maxing out my Roth and picking up the Old Faithfuls seems sound.

Does growing wealth have to be super complicated and mega tense?

 

The stock market isn't setup to allow you to make a lot of money in 'safe' established companies. I bought Intel in 2003 or 2004 when I first started investing, thinking that this is a big stable company that sells a lot, makes profits, and makes a good product.
Intel Corporation Stock Chart | INTC Interactive Chart - Yahoo! Finance
If you look at the chart, they don't get rewarded for that. Pretty much the same thing with Coke. You might not 'lose' money, but it won't do much to keep up with inflation, if there isn't a dividend.

The stock market only rewards the possibility of future growth. If you sold 10k this month and made a profit, but have something new that will sell 100k next month, the stock will go up. Until you only sell 90k, and then it goes down. Well, unless you have millions to play with and can buy large amounts of stock to move the price, and ride the wave up. Then sell before the gig is up.

Dividend producing stocks are one way to invest, but I am running into that problem with another company I'm invested in. I still am getting cash each month from profits, but my initial investment is down 30% when it went from 19 to 13 in 2 weeks.

As for the college/student loan thing, yes, the future of the economy looks pretty shaky in 10 years. When interest rates go up, and lots of graduates still can't find a job, will the job they do find be able to cover the bill? Will they be able to save for a house, car, 401k, wedding, or will they be debt slaves until they are in their 40s?

 

Hah. I've read about Romney's tactics a couple months ago and thouht: "He's make a great Republican president."

Here's where I read it: Conscious Capitalism Lies in Conscience - Cohesian

 

The market is arational. It's an emergent process that's totally the byproduct or people who are acting, on some level, irrational. But like I said, I'd be a shitty stock investor because I'd invest with my conscience in mind, rather than my retirement because I think it's shortsighted to encourage the growth of companies that are actively undermining healthy communities and working to further erode the political power of the average person, regardless of the promised return.

Risks frequently come with rewards, it's true. But I have a hard time feeling like I've earned something if luck played a huge role in the process. For example, it takes a certain amount of work putting quarters in a slot machine six times a minute for several hours. Given a jackpot, there's a pretty clear causal progression from effort to compensation. However, I think that claiming that the jackpot was earned kind of deflates the meaning of the word. To me, the stock market is essentially an incredibly complex slot machine.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that perhaps we approach the issue from different directions.

 

Why does it appear like I could take you to a nice mellow bar/lounge and talk about life, God and the universe with you for hours on end.

Possibly just another wrong impression of mine because of this silly text-based communication.

I like when people are open of their thoughts and opinions.

 

"The market" is really just a catch-all term for the collective results of millions of decisions by individuals. While those decisions can be rational and irrational, the market can't, because the market doesn't think. A flock of seagulls isn't rational, but the seagulls are.

I see what you're saying. However, the difference between slot machines and poker is more a matter of degree of perceived control than justness of compensation. Winning at cards takes skill, sure. I don't know that having the right set of cards in your hand when it's time to call is the same as earning money. There certainly isn't a lot of value added to society by the exchange of cash in games of chance like poker or the slots. There isn't any sort of service or product being produced. Money spends the same regardless of whether it's being spent by Jim the poker chump or Joe the poker champ.

At least investment can help drive the economy, which is nice. I'm still not ready to agree that one can "earn" money by giving it to other people to do actual work and then taking a cut of the proceeds.

And while it may seem like luck plays a minor role in "successful" investing, I find it just as plausible that those who are successful are more apt to attribute their success to cunning and perspicacity (rather than luck) than people who aren't successful regardless of any actual considerations of cunning and perspicacity. Everybody likes to think that they're successful because they're special, but as Plan9 would tell you, nobody is special.

 

That is the way it should be. But when you have millions of small investors, and then a handful of big players and financial firms that control the money of a lot more, the small investors don't stand much of a chance to know what will happen. My 100-400 shares of a company mean nothing when there are millions of shares outstanding or a big firm dumps lots of shares because the computer program said to.

 

It's easy to identify the areas of the market where the small investor is at a competitive disadvantage.
It's harder, but far more rewarding, to start identifying where you actually have an advantage and can use that to your benefit.
I'll give one example to start: Who has more possible ways to invest in individual stocks: You as the small fry home gamer investing $10,000 at a clip, or the portfolio manager at Fidelity who has to put $100 million in a position to even make it show up on the scorecard?

 

Are you going to fast forward to the part where you post instructions on how to defeat tear gas used by those overzealous law enforcement thugs and the proper way to toss a Molotov cocktail at a Subway restaurant while wearing a Guy Fawkes mask or what? ASU2003, you're clearly a smart dude. Much smarter than me. As such, it should be a warning sign when you start posting stuff that even I find blatantly obvious. Where is this going?

 

If I ever go to one of these protests, I will bring my gas mask. I'm sure the cops will love it. I also have ear plugs, body armor, and the means to defeat whatever method the police come up with. Anyways, that isn't how you fight the system, they wouldn't like it if I were to show people how to fight the system. It's just that the people are too stupid to actually do it.

Anyways, I still want to find out how to invest, or do you just structure your life to not need money? That is what is doing the best for me right now. Well, Vegas is my best performing investment. I am up $1,000 there. My bank account at 0.5% interest is my biggest holding now, and I make a few hundred there a year. I lost $4,200 in one stock this year, and I'm dollar cost averaging into another one at basically 0% over the last 8 years into my company. I lose $3,000 a year in property taxes, $800 to the Home Owners Association, $800 in home insurance, $1,000 in medical/dental insurance (which is probably cheap), $400 in water/sewer bills, $400 in electricity, $300 in gas service, and 25% in taxes. I could go into more detail. My 401k has done nothing over the last 8 years, and seriously I think the economy will be stable and slowing down over the next 20 years. So what is the point in making money and being a workaholic if your profit margin is 0%. I 'could' get loans and buy nice cars and live it up like millions of other people...

It doesn't matter which political party wins, the other will sabotage it. The baby boomers are slowing down and a lot of the economy is getting shipped to the cheapest labor where ever that is.

The only way I can see really being successful at this point is to start a on-line/distributor business. You can make your own hours, sell a product, and can adjust the price with inflation to a point. Well, there is getting an MBA and going to the dark side of upper management, but I'm not doing that.